Abilities with Prerequisites & taking the prerequisites at the same time?

[Jhulae]

Ok, I'm getting confused here. I thought I knew how to handle this, and this thread totally mixed up my understanding of the rules.

What do we have:
1. Feats that require BAB.
2. Feats that require Class features
3. PrC's that require BAB
4. PrC's that require Class features
5. PrC's that require Feats.

So, upon gaining a new level, can I:
1. Take a feat that requires the BAB I just gained.
2. Take a feat that requires a class feature I just gained.
3. Take a PrC that requires the BAB I just gained.(Ok, this one has been answered: NO)
4. Take a PrC that requires a Class feature I just gained.(This one's silly. NO)
5. Take a PrC that requires a Feat I just gained.

Apart from 3 and 4, we are left with:

If I want to take a PrC that requires a Feat that requires a BAB I get upon taking the PrC, can I take it?
That one's silly too. NO. So, what can I take and what not?

Herzog

According to the rules of:

1. Choose Class.
2. Increase BAB per the advanced class.
3. Increase base saves per the advanced class.
4. Increase ability score if at appropriate level.
5. Add new hit points per the advanced class.
6. Add skill points per the advanced class.
7. Add a feat if at the right level.
8. Add spells per the advanced class.
9. Add class features (such as bonus feats).

The answer for your questions:
1) is Yes. You gain the BAB increase in step 2, and choose a feat in step 7 (or 9).
2) Technically No. Gaining feats comes in step 7, Class Features in step 9. FAQ gives a blanket answer of yes, but if you follow the steps in order you can see where it's true and false.
5) No. You have to choose your class in Step 1. You don't have a feat until step 7.

And, for the OP's question, a fighter at level 6 could take Cleave (in step 7, add a feat) and Great Cleave (in Step 9, where the fighter's bonus feat kicks in).

 

[Hypersmurf]

2) Technically No. Gaining feats comes in step 7, Class Features in step 9. FAQ gives a blanket answer of yes, but if you follow the steps in order you can see where it's true and false.

But it's not just the FAQ.

The PHB on p87 says a character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite. And it states that at 3rd level, Krusk can spend a skill point on Ride and take the Mounted Combat feat at the same time. Not 'subsequently'; 'at the same time'. The skill point is not spent on Ride prior to gaining the feat; the two occur 'at the same time', under the description of feat prerequisites.

So the text on feats suggests to me that if step 6 and step 7 occur at the same time, then so do step 7 and step 9; further, if someone takes a feat that makes a cross-class skill a class skill, for example, the skill points spent at the same level (spent 'at the same time') on that skill will be spent at class cost, not cross-class cost.

Similarly, a Ftr1/Wiz4 who levels to Ft1/Wiz5 could use his Wizard Bonus Feat to take Craft Wand, and his 6th Character Level feat to take Reckless Wand Wielder (prerequisite: Craft Wand), because he can take the feat (Reckless Wand Wielder) at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite (Craft Wand).

-Hyp.

 

[Jhulae]

But it's not just the FAQ.

The PHB on p87 says a character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite. And it states that at 3rd level, Krusk can spend a skill point on Ride and take the Mounted Combat feat at the same time. Not 'subsequently'; 'at the same time'. The skill point is not spent on Ride prior to gaining the feat; the two occur 'at the same time', under the description of feat prerequisites.

So the text on feats suggests to me that if step 6 and step 7 occur at the same time, then so do step 7 and step 9; further, if someone takes a feat that makes a cross-class skill a class skill, for example, the skill points spent at the same level (spent 'at the same time') on that skill will be spent at class cost, not cross-class cost.

Similarly, a Ftr1/Wiz4 who levels to Ft1/Wiz5 could use his Wizard Bonus Feat to take Craft Wand, and his 6th Character Level feat to take Reckless Wand Wielder (prerequisite: Craft Wand), because he can take the feat (Reckless Wand Wielder) at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite (Craft Wand).

-Hyp.

But, it's no coincidence that Krusk gets the ride skill (gained in step 6) just before he's able to take the Mounted Combat feat (step 7).

I honestly don't have any problem with resolving what the FAQ says with the steps in order as presented by the rules.

Either way, it doesn't mean you can take a Prestige class without already having the requirements on the sheet.

 

[glass]

This came up in another thread I'd started and I though it might warrant its own discussion.

So say that as part of leveling you gain the option of choosing a new class ability, feat or whatever and it has prerequisites associated with it, but you also have the ability to take that prerequisite, can you take both at the same time? For instance imagine a 3rd level fighter gaining a fighter feat and a free feat for his 3rd level, could he take both Cleave and Great Cleave at the same time?

I'd say yes, to do otherwise hurts fighters (and humans) too much. Not sure if it is spelled out anywhere. EDIT: But I see from your later post that you found that it is.

Not that fighters get a bonus feat at 3rd level. I guess you meant 6th.


glass.

 

[irdeggman]

If I want to take a PrC that requires a Feat that requires a BAB I get upon taking the PrC, can I take it?
That one's silly too. NO. So, what can I take and what not?

Herzog

See the previous post on the restrictins for taking prestige classes.


http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3211608&postcount=18

All prequisites for a prestige class must be met before taking a level in that class and since "choosing" which class you are taking is the first step in advancing you can't take that class at the level where you meet prerequisites. It is a specific requirement for Prestige Classes contained in the DMG.

 

[Krafen]

I advise you to ignore this person. They have no idea what they are talking about and are clearly just grinding some axe to prove that the Book of 9 Swords is broken or hates it and wants to ruin it for you.

You of course can take prereqs along with other manuvers. Otherwise, a swordsage, who knows 6 freakin' manuvers at first level would not even be able to spend all of them, except taking garbage for 6 different schools. The whole point is you pick like 3 schools and stick to them.

For instance, Tiger's leap is a level 1 manuver, but it requires you to know another tigerclaw manuver. How dumb would it be to have a level 1 manuver you cannot learn even if you have its prereq along with it?

Well, as the person who made the statement, I take issue with your characterization of me. I have no axe to grind regarding the Tome of Battle and I do not want to ruin it for the OP.

His question was whether a character who took a martial adept class after first level could take a stance with a prerequisite if his initiator level was high enough.

Your example is an exaggeration, the majority of 1st and many 2nd level maneuvers have no prerequisites. Sudden Leap (the maneuver I believe you are referring to) does have a prerequisite, but it is an exception.

 

[Drawmack]

I handle prereques in DnD, the same way I handle prereques at school.

Let's say: Calc I is a prereque for Non-Linear Data Structures. Now the only reason for the prereque is because you use something in the 10th week of NLDS that is taught in the 3rd week of Calc. So you can take these as co-reques (at the same time). On the other hand, Calc I is a prereque for Calc II and you cannot take these at the same time becuase The first week of calc II is dependent on the 14th week of Calc I.

So if I look at DnD this way: Two feats with one as a prereque where the second enhances the first (don't have an example handy) you can coreque them. However, taking two feats where the second builds on the first ala Cleave/Greate Cleave you cannot do that.

Maybe it's house rules but it just makes sense to me that way. Take the prereque/coreque rulling on a case by case basis.

 

[satori01]

Your house ruling of equating University class requirements to feat selection is just plain not germane. We are not talking Calc 1 and Calc 2, we are talking about a 6th level fighter with Power Attack using one of his feats to select Cleave, and his second feat at that level to take Great Cleave, which we know he qualifies for.

Not really any ambiguity there.
Likewise maneuver wise you should be able to take say for example one Desert Wind Maneuver and then another Desert Wind Maneuver that has the prerequisite "one other Desert Wind maneuver". Hells, at higher level you could theoretically swap out a maneuver for a different one, and than use the maneuver you just swapped as a prerequisite to for knew maneuvers you just gained, ie swapping out a low level Desert Wind for a Stone Dragon maneuver and then using the new maneuvers learned at the level for Stone Dragon maneuvers.

As for order of operations, in character leveling I generally rule tie goes to the player. I tend to agree with Hyp that some type of simultaneous occurence must be happening by implication. Else technically, by a strict interpretation of the order of operation, a character that chose Open Mind as a feat, (grants 5 bonus skill points), would not be able to spend those points until the next Character level, which is clearly not the intent of the feat.

 

[Particle_Man]

That would still leave the question of, say, the rouge 10 who takes a level in swordsage and gets 6 maneuvers to choose from, of level 1, 2 or 3, being a (1+ 10/2=) 6th level "maneuver-caster" or whatever they call it.

Could that sword sage, for example, take two desert wind maneuvers (and no other desert wind maneuvers) that *each* have as their prerequisite "must have one other desert wind maneuver"? That is, can the two simultaneously act as each other's prerequisite, at the time that one first takes them both, if this is all done at the same level?

 

[KarinsDad]

I must admit, I wouldn't allow you to take a PrC that had a feat as a prerequisite unless you already had that feat.

Regardless of changing the rest of the number order, one still needs to pick their class at each level first. Picking it later is nonsensical (e.g. how can you pick your skills if you do not yet know which skills are class skills and how many skill points you have?).

And changing the order of some of the other numbers is not always irrelevant either (e.g. picking skills before increasing Int or picking a BAB prerequisite feat before increasing BAB, etc.).