Abilities with Prerequisites & taking the prerequisites at the same time?

[Sejs]

For instance imagine a 6th level fighter gaining a fighter feat and a free feat for his 6th level, could he take both Cleave and Great Cleave at the same time?

Yes, he can.

The only place where it gets slightly complicated is in the case of PrCs, but the long and short of that is: you don't have any of the features of a given level until you've basically 'locked them in' by finalizing the gains selected for said level.

6th level "maneuver-caster" or whatever they call it.

Initiator. *nod*

Caster for most magic, manifester for psionics, initiator for martial maneuvers, binder for vestiges... uh, I think that's it. I think incarnum is based on the essentia invested rather than your straight incarnum-user level, but I'm not sure on that one as I don't use the system often.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But, it's no coincidence that Krusk gets the ride skill (gained in step 6) just before he's able to take the Mounted Combat feat (step 7).

He doesn't get the Ride skill 'just before'. He gets it 'at the same time'. It says so. That was the entire point of my post.

I honestly don't have any problem with resolving what the FAQ says with the steps in order as presented by the rules.

And changing the order of some of the other numbers is not always irrelevant either (e.g. picking skills before increasing Int or picking a BAB prerequisite feat before increasing BAB, etc.).

Interestingly, in 3E, the ability increase didn't matter - you only received increased skill points for a change in Int that was constant or nearly constant across the previous level, so whether you increased your Int just before, just after, or at the same time as you calculated your skill points made no difference. Increasing Int from 13 to 14 at 4th level means you got an extra skill point at 5th level and beyond...

In 3.5, it's still not really an issue, since we know from the Feats text that steps 6 and 7 happen 'at the same time', so there's no reason to think that the ability score increase and the skill point allocation, or the BAB increase and the feat selection, don't happen 'at the same time' either.

And when you change the order from "Ability score increase and skill point allocation occur at the same time" to "Skill point allocation and ability score increase occur at the same time", it doesn't make a bit of difference to the result

I agree completely on the selection of class, however; as I noted earlier, until you pick a class, you're not a 6th level character, so none of the benefits applicable to becoming a 6th level character can apply.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

In 3.5, it's still not really an issue, since we know from the Feats text that steps 6 and 7 happen 'at the same time', so there's no reason to think that the ability score increase and the skill point allocation, or the BAB increase and the feat selection, don't happen 'at the same time' either.

And when you change the order from "Ability score increase and skill point allocation occur at the same time" to "Skill point allocation and ability score increase occur at the same time", it doesn't make a bit of difference to the result

Where exactly is the explicit text that indicates that an INT increase at level 4 from 13 to 14 doesn't also increase the number of skill points acquired at level 4? I do not quite understand the correlation between "ability scores and skills" to "skills and feats".

Wouldn't this be the same as increasing CON from 13 to 14 on step 4 increasing hit points at step 5?

 

[Dracomeander]

I'm not sure I would allow both maneuvers to have the other as a prerequisite when gaining them at the same level. One could definitely use the other as a prerequisite but not both.

By the vagaries of the maneuver swapping mechanic, I think two maneuvers could end up being prerequisites for each other. While you are learning the new maneuver, the old maneuver is the prerequisite for the maneuver that is the prerequisite of the maneuver being learned. As soon as the new maneuver is learned, it replaces the old maneuver and becomes the prerequisite for the maneuver that allowed you to learn the new maneuver. It's bizarre, but it technically works.

 

[irdeggman]

Interestingly, in 3E, the ability increase didn't matter - you only received increased skill points for a change in Int that was constant or nearly constant across the previous level, so whether you increased your Int just before, just after, or at the same time as you calculated your skill points made no difference. Increasing Int from 13 to 14 at 4th level means you got an extra skill point at 5th level and beyond...

In 3.5, it's still not really an issue, since we know from the Feats text that steps 6 and 7 happen 'at the same time', so there's no reason to think that the ability score increase and the skill point allocation, or the BAB increase and the feat selection, don't happen 'at the same time' either.

And when you change the order from "Ability score increase and skill point allocation occur at the same time" to "Skill point allocation and ability score increase occur at the same time", it doesn't make a bit of difference to the result

I agree completely on the selection of class, however; as I noted earlier, until you pick a class, you're not a 6th level character, so none of the benefits applicable to becoming a 6th level character can apply.

-Hyp.

In 3.0 you got to apply the bonus skill points immediately at 4th level (or whenever the ability score increase ocurred).

PHB pg 10

As a new 4th level character, she can get the skill points after raising her
Intelligence, so she’ll get 5 points for achieving 4th level in the
wizard class. She does not retroactively get additional points for her
previous levels (that is, skill points she would have gained if she had
had an Intelligence score of 16 starting at 1st level).

In 3.5 the same text appears on pg 10 also.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Where exactly is the explicit text that indicates that an INT increase at level 4 from 13 to 14 doesn't also increase the number of skill points acquired at level 4? I do not quite understand the correlation between "ability scores and skills" to "skills and feats".

Hmm? In 3.5, it absolutely does increase the number of skill points acquired at level 4.

Wouldn't this be the same as increasing CON from 13 to 14 on step 4 increasing hit points at step 5?

No, because a change in Con alters your hit points gained at previous levels too.

In 3.0 you got to apply the bonus skill points immediately at 4th level (or whenever the ability score increase ocurred).

Not according to the section on Character Advancement. (Away from my books - 3E PHB p145, maybe?) It explicitly stated that only changes that were constant (or nearly so) throughout the previous level affected skill points.

Examples are generally considered secondary sources, aren't they?

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

Not according to the section on Character Advancement. (Away from my books - 3E PHB p145, maybe?) It explicitly stated that only changes that were constant (or nearly so) throughout the previous level affected skill points.

Examples are generally considered secondary sources, aren't they?

-Hyp.

I provided the exact quote and page from 3.0 PHB that says it does. I only pointed out that there was also an example. It was under Changing Ability Scores - so it would appear to be the specific and not a general rule. It is in the paragraph right after the bulletized list. It is also the same text that is in the 3.5 PHB too.

The section on increasing levels seems to be talking about artificial increases (or decreases) like feeblemind and headband of intellect.

Your character’s Intelligence modifier affects the number of
skill points he or she gets at each level (see Table 1–1: Ability
Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8). This rule represents an
intelligent character’s ability to learn faster over time (and the
slower rate for dim-witted characters), so use the Intelligence
score that your character had during his or her previous level. If
he or she was feebleminded for a short time during the previous
level, that doesn’t reduce the number of skill points he or she
acquires. Likewise, wearing a headband of intellect for a short time
doesn’t grant him or her extra skill points. Only a change in
Intelligence that was constant (or very nearly constant) over the
previous level affects how many skill points were acquired during
that level.

So I would say the text under changing ability scores would take precedence since it is more specific on raising intellegence as part of leveling up.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The section on increasing levels seems to be talking about artificial increases (or decreases) like feeblemind and headband of intellect.

I don't agree; it's talking about how Int modifier affects skill points, and states "so use the Intelligence score that your character had during his or her previous level".

In much the same way that an example character who takes Improved Natural Attack with a BAB of +0 is an error, not an illustration of an exception, an example character who uses the just-increased Int modifier to calculate 3E skill points is an error, based on the 3E rules for Level Advancement. (Hey, how's that - it was p145! )

-Hyp.

 

[Starglim]

See PHB, p. 58, "Level Advancement". This gives you the order in which you must make changes when gaining a new level. There is an equivalent list for 1st level on page 6. If the prerequisite falls later in the list than the consequent choice (for example, choosing a prestige class before you take a feat that you require to qualify for the class), that's an illegal build.

edit:

The PHB on p87 says a character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite. And it states that at 3rd level, Krusk can spend a skill point on Ride and take the Mounted Combat feat at the same time. Not 'subsequently'; 'at the same time'. The skill point is not spent on Ride prior to gaining the feat; the two occur 'at the same time', under the description of feat prerequisites.

However, the quoted text occurs only two sentences after "Your character must have .. in order to select or use that feat". Thus I read "at the same time" here as a somewhat lazy phrasing with the same intent as "at the same level", rather than "an undetermined point around the same time and potentially before".


In the case of Cleave and Great Cleave or two consecutive maneuvers, clearly you choose one of those feats or maneuvers before the other, so you can satisfy the prerequisite.

 

[Hypersmurf]

However, the quoted text occurs only two sentences after "Your character must have .. in order to select or use that feat".

And one sentence after "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains a prerequisite."

Neither page 6 nor page 58 specify that the steps must be followed in order. p58 says "Make these changes", not "Make these changes in the order listed".

Thus I read "at the same time" here as a somewhat lazy phrasing with the same intent as "at the same level", rather than "an undetermined point around the same time and potentially before".

Oh, I don't read it as "an undetermined point around the same time and potentially before".

I read it as "at the same time". Hence the phrasing: "at the same time", which I think does an admirable job of conveying that meaning.

-Hyp.