ability roll cheating

[Barendd Nobeard]

(I'm also one of those weird GMs that only allows Core PHB material.)

I run a home game that way. And I used to live in Oxford, OH. Coincidence? Or something in the water?!

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

We usually have the "rule" of "roll until your happy". Yes, that may incur uber-powerful characters, but as long as you're having fun, why get upset?

This is a perfect example of an agreed consensus to incorporate extra rerolls within the system. For the reroll cheats this would be a good way to incorporate them back within the fold of legallity, so long as the dm can handle the little bit of effort in tweaking some npcs to maintain their CR.

Sometimes the "cheat" is merely a player that is not having their wants taken into consideration.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Nice to see the stats in their proper order again!

I thought that dex was rolled before con, no?

 

[orsal]

I thought that dex was rolled before con, no?

That depends how far back you go.

OD&D, and Basic, had Con before Dex. AD&D switched those two.

 

[ARandomGod]

Doesn't that just further my point? That this particular point buy scheme is on average more powerful than this particular random scheme, contra your earlier comment?

Only if your point was either the same as mine, or completely tangential to mine... that particular point buy method is more consistent than random.. and since the point buy method I'm talking about can be altered to give as many or as few points as you think is appropriate, it's either more or less powerful depending on what you give. Rather like the current point buy system.

+6 with 25 PB -- to get +8 you need 28 points. (Start with -6 if all attributes are 8, then each +1 costs at least 2 points.)

Right... I changed that from 28 to 25 and missed changing that point... poor editing, I admit I'm guilty of it!

The nonlinear scale doesn't punish heroes, unless your definition of a hero is one with heavily unbalanced stats. It does favour well-balanced characters with multiple good stats but no great stats, as opposed to those with few great stats and other mediocre stats.

My definition of a hero is one with a strong primary stat... IE with at least one score above 14, and preferably one 18... So THAT depends on what you call "heavily unbalanced". I'm saying that having a different total modifier score for someone with an 18 is horribly unbalanced. Or to put it, I think that the non-linear point buy creates heavily unbalanced characters by it's very non-linear nature.

My experience is that with standard point buy, most players pick 16 for their primary attribute. The feeling seems to be mostly that the 2-point cost is worth it for the prime attribute, but not so many like the 3-point cost. In other words, extreme minimaxing isn't worth it, but neither is extreme flatness.

Really? Do your mages actually do this? I've seen people settle for a 17, but not a 16... It's just not done in my circles. And the guy who settled for a 17 was me, and I felt that it was a huge sacrific that I made to better balance the character...

With a non-linear point buy system you aren't making as big a sacrifice to get that 18, which is my point and yours, I believe. You seem to be saying (to me) that this non-heroic (by my defintion) character is good. All I'm saying is that I disagree, I think that if one character has a total mofier score of +6, then all should get that. Even the guy with an 18. I admit it, THAT's what I consider a hero, someone at the maximum potential. A person with a group of 14's can be a hero too... but he can't be every type of hero. Someone who can distribute whatever points are given equally can.

 

[orsal]

Only if your point was either the same as mine, or completely tangential to mine... that particular point buy method is more consistent than random.. and since the point buy method I'm talking about can be altered to give as many or as few points as you think is appropriate, it's either more or less powerful depending on what you give. Rather like the current point buy system.

My post was in direct response to your claim that the 3-of-4 d6 method produced more powerful characters than a 28-point linear point buy. If I wasn't talking about the same system as you, I couldn't very well have refuted your point, could I?

Really? Do your mages actually do this? I've seen people settle for a 17, but not a 16... It's just not done in my circles. And the guy who settled for a 17 was me, and I felt that it was a huge sacrific that I made to better balance the character...

Some data collected from the Living ENWorld character thread. This is a 30-point-buy campaign. I went through the first 88 characters in all; I think that's a large enough sample to spare me the effort to do the same with the other 4 pages. I tallied the following abilitiy scores, pre-racial adjustment.

8 -- appears 37 times
9 -- appears 6 times
10 -- appears 107 times
11 -- appears 8 times
12 -- appears 108 times
13 -- appears 21 times
14 -- appears 150 times
15 -- appears 20 times
16 -- appears 57 times
17 -- appears 8 times
18 -- appears 7 times

(I must be off by one, since the numbers add up to 529, and 6x88=528. Big deal.)

So in my experience with point buy (which consists of LEW), yes, scores above 16 are rare.

This gives me an idea. I'd like to compare this distribution to the probability distribution from 3-out-of-4 d6. Apart from odd numbers being much rarer in point buy, I suspect they're quite close.

With a non-linear point buy system you aren't making as big a sacrifice to get that 18, which is my point and yours, I believe.

Ummm.. you mean with a linear system you aren't making as big a sacrifice, right? If so, then yes, we agree. We just disagree on whether that's a good thing.

 

[delericho]

My definition of a hero is one with a strong primary stat... IE with at least one score above 14, and preferably one 18... So THAT depends on what you call "heavily unbalanced". I'm saying that having a different total modifier score for someone with an 18 is horribly unbalanced. Or to put it, I think that the non-linear point buy creates heavily unbalanced characters by it's very non-linear nature.

Wow. The one score above 14 I can see, and would agree on - frankly I don't expect to see any such characters in point buy, and very few in random-roll. But an 18? One of the advantages of the DMG point-buy method is that it keeps such stats rightfully rare. (Obviously, your mileage varies.)

Really? Do your mages actually do this? I've seen people settle for a 17, but not a 16... It's just not done in my circles. And the guy who settled for a 17 was me, and I felt that it was a huge sacrific that I made to better balance the character...

A lot of the 'need' for high stats is probably a holdover from previous editions, when you 'needed' one or more 16's to get a +10% bonus on XP, and where scores between 8 and 14 were meaningless. 3rd edition has corrected both problems (assuming you see it as such), but hasn't done much to dispel the perceived 'need' among players.

Another issue is the question of stat minimums for spellcasters. Since you need a 19 Int to cast 9th level spells, the perception is that you need a 16 to start with to get there by 17th level. This is very unfortunate for several reasons:

1) The low spellcasting stat concept is the one thing that makes multiclass spellcasters a viable concept. Pick up a few levels of Wizard to supplement your Rogue, and choose spells that don't allow or don't require saving throws, and you get a potent combination. Pick up a few levels of Cleric to supplement Fighter, and the same happens. However, if you have a good spellcasting stat, you're probably better going single-class.

2) The game assumes a normal availability of magic items, including stat-boosting items. As these represent some of the most useful items in the game, players are expected to boost their prime stat. That being the case, you could start with an 11 Int, and still be throwing around 9th level spells at the appropriate time. Granted, it's a sub-optimal build, but it's a viable build.

Of course, if the DM doesn't adhere to the normal level of magic item availability (either in amount of magic or type of magic, then what I've said doesn't apply. In that case, a high starting stat becomes a requirement).

The thing is, a high spellcasting stat for a Wizard is almost directly analagous to a high Strength for a Fighter. Give the choice, of course you'll go for a high value over a low one. However, it should be seen as something that is nice to have, not an absolute requirement. If you can see playing a Fighter with a 15 Strength, you should be able to see playing a Wizard with a 15 Intelligence, at least at 1st level.

 

[Darth K'Trava]

This is a perfect example of an agreed consensus to incorporate extra rerolls within the system. For the reroll cheats this would be a good way to incorporate them back within the fold of legallity, so long as the dm can handle the little bit of effort in tweaking some npcs to maintain their CR.

Sometimes the "cheat" is merely a player that is not having their wants taken into consideration.

They do take in account the fact that we have higher than average scores as to the number/type of critters we face. Not to mention NPCs as well.

We all usually make characters at home as most of us use our computers and etools (or some handwrite) for character generation. Cuts down on game time that could be better suited to gaming, not character generation. I had one DM comment on my cleric having a 21 wisdom score until I told him that I started with a 17, put both stat boosts into wisdom AND got a periapt of wisdom +2. Then he was ok with it.

 

[Hammerforge]

RE: point buy. I did bring this up prior to the game starting, but the players do not want to use this method, preffering the chance to get higher stats from random rolls.

When you allow them to roll up stats, do you let them reroll the entire set of stats if they don't like them? If you do, it's no wonder they prefer the roll method. Recently I had my players pick between a roll method or a point buy method, but I told them in advance that the roll method could be used only once.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

When you allow them to roll up stats, do you let them reroll the entire set of stats if they don't like them? If you do, it's no wonder they prefer the roll method. Recently I had my players pick between a roll method or a point buy method, but I told them in advance that the roll method could be used only once.

Exactly eh

You cannot compare a roll method with a point buy unless there is finality to the rolls. This is the reason why I consider 4d6dl to be the equal to 25pt buy & not any value higher.