ability roll cheating

[Pbartender]

An idea that came to me was to give bonus points out for spreading the stats out.
Something like + 1 build point if all of you stats are 10+, +2 build points if they are all 11+,
+3 build points if they are all 12+ ect.

That should help out the characters who have multiple stat requirements to do their job, without raising the bar on base points.

Thoughts?

Most thinking players understand that the default point buy system already rewards this sort of behavior... As is, with point buy, you get the most ability bonus per point if as many of your ability scores as possible are 14 or lower.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Stats are too much of a constant to be left up to fate and the unsteady hand of somebody rolling at home alone.

I'm one of those wild hard-case GMs that use point buy and even use an adjusted average for HP.

Everyone I play with got used to point buy rather quickly. The only thing that pt-buy is bad for is monks, who sort of need an above-average number of points in order to perform averagely without an infusion of feats and stuff from other sources.

(I'm also one of those weird GMs that only allows Core PHB material.)

--fje

 

[Ellie_the_Elf]

I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said already...but I thought you might find this little story amusing.

We're preparing to run a new game at the moment, and I told my players they could basically pick what stats they wanted. Mostly they seemed pretty happy with this, and after a few jokes about how they were having 6 18s, they all chose what I'd consider reasonable stats.

Except my boyfriend, who got very quiet. On the way home, he asked if he could roll instead. I said no problem. So we got home, I went and got changed, and came back downstairs to find him waiting for me with his 4d6. Asked what he was doing, answer was 'Waiting for you to witness my rolls'. So he rolled, I watched- and the first set were pretty low- highest was about a 14, as I recall. I told him he could reroll, which he did. Second set were better, but not quite what he wanted. I suggested he pick stats instead and was rewarded with a pained expression, so told him he could reroll again. Third set, he wanted to put one roll up by one and reduce another by the same amount, which I didn't have a problem with. He sat and considered this, then asked if it might be better for him to roll the whole lot again?

At this point I realised that he didn't want to pick a set of 6 numbers, he wanted to *roll* the specific set of 6 numbers he had in mind. Many, many rolls later he finally got what he wanted and is very proud he rolled these stats instead of just choosing them <rolls eyes>

I can't even pretend to understand the logic of this, but at least we can start the campaign now.

Ellie.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I can't even pretend to understand the logic of this, but at least we can start the campaign now.

Ellie.

It springs from a need to validate the scores so you can say aloud that they were rolled, were random & were witnessed (but in actuality is BS).

I have had a couple of players that were similar in this regard, they wanted specific scores but wanted to use a generation method that on average would not provide them with, so they rerolled, but every reroll caused mounting invalidation. This is why I ask my friends:

1) How random do they want the scores to be?
2) What are the upper & lower minimums they want to see?
3) What is the average score they want?
4) Do they want me to adjust up or down my npcs from the base 15 & 25pt buy?

They might answer: small randomness; at least one 18 & nothing lower than 10; average 15; & have the occasional mighty npcs to challenge them.

So I respond with: [18*1, 16*1, (d4+d6+8)*4] averages 15; leader npcs have same generation method. In effect I build a sub-system to generate the desired scores, not the other way around, & I'll do the same with hps.

 

[Crothian]

I can't even pretend to understand the logic of this, but at least we can start the campaign now.

I also usually have players just pick their score. THough in the latest game with my new players we went point buy as I'm not sure they are ready for this. Anyway, of the players who choose to pick scores no one ever picked a score higher then 16 and everyone always had a 9 or lower. But most of the players gave themsleves a point buy (some as low as 25 but no one went higher then 30) or used dice to determine their scores. They are just more comforitbile with that way.

Ability scores are more important in the low level games though. So, people that worry about unbalanced characters only have to be patient as the level system evens things out.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

One thing I've noticed is that, even with the "roll-in-front-of-the-GM" method, all the players don't typically play what they rolled. Inevitably, one character has well above average stats and one character either is significatly lower than everyone else (but not in the official level where you are allowed to reroll) or has nothing that stands out (all stats are 12-14, for example). Usually, the DM either allows the lower player reroll or the player resents having the lower character.

This is why the method needs to be agreed by all before a die is even looked at. Once that is done it is easy to decline a player a reroll because inevitably someone has to have the lowest average.

If you allow arbitrary rerolls any sub-system will break down; in the worse case they reroll a far superior set of scores than the previous best & the dm is then beset with a chorus of rerolls or players seethe with distrust. The dm may need to build a reroll option into the sub-system to eliminate the troublesome arbitrary reroll.

The easiest way to identify if you need to build in some safeguard is to ask the players in all seriousness "can you handle the worst case result?" If they can then there is no problems, if they can't you need to address this such as in my previous post.

When you do not address the fact that the generation method has an unacceptable lowest result, the method is invalidated right from go. Players will insert their own lowest acceptable level & demand rerolls if this is not met & the dm has problems before the game even starts. Why let this happen when a bit of communication & a little thought could have solved this?

 

[Dalprin]

Interesting topic.

My advise to to the DM who doesn't feel comfortable confronting the probable stat cheater is to let him have his character but bump the stats for any critter he confronts. +4 hit/ +4 damage, +4 hit pts per HD, etc... but the critters the others confront do not get the bump. You'll have to do some mental math adjustments as the game progresses (Do not tell your players what you are doing!!!!) I only suggest this as a means to keep one character from dominating the game.

On the topic of point buy...

I understand the desire to control the power of your player with point buy; but, doesn't this result in all the characters being near clones of every other character that shares the same class? This is one of the reasons I dislike point build systems like GURPS and Hero. Oh you're a fighter? I guess that means you have a 15 strength, 14 dexterity, 13 Constitution, etc... Give me the 4d6 drop the lowest and play with people I can trust system of generating ability scores any day of the week.

 

[Breakdaddy]

I'm a heavy handed DM, so take this with a grain of salt if you are less inclined to be...

I told my PCs a long time ago that I dont care if they cheat (of course, I *do* care, and they know this), but if I catch them, then they owe me TWO cheats against them. Sounds to me like this guy has two humiliating defeats coming his way; and might I be so bold as to suggest that one of them leads to his unfortunate(?) and less than timely demise.

-Breakdaddy (who hates cheating, its a GAME ffs)

 

[Crothian]

I understand the desire to control the power of your player with point buy; but, doesn't this result in all the characters being near clones of every other character that shares the same class? This is one of the reasons I dislike point build systems like GURPS and Hero. Oh you're a fighter? I guess that means you have a 15 strength, 14 dexterity, 13 Constitution, etc... Give me the 4d6 drop the lowest and play with people I can trust system of generating ability scores any day of the week.

THis is not a problem with point buy. This is a problem with unorginal players.

 

[Snapdragyn]

Someone else posted a similar resource, but if you want your players to roll rather than using point buy, & don't have time or energy to witness the rolls, you could have them use an online secure die roller to generate the scores; the results are emailed to you & the player from the server, so you know what the actual scores were, no cheating.