Ability Scores - A different arrangement

[reanjr]

The problem with too many attributes is you have implausible contrasts. 18 Str and 7 Con. ?? What's going on??

I agree. Best, I think, would be to have base scores with child scores or prerequisites.

Like

Physical: 10
Physical Strength: 8 (18)
Physical Constitution: 1 (11)

Or

Strength can not exceed twice your Constitution or can not be more than 5 higher.

 

[Gentlegamer]

If I remember correctly, the Lejendary Adventures game uses only three standard attributes: Speed, Precision, and Health. A fourth, Intellect, is optional. These "base ratings" form the foundation for all other abilities (skill-bundles), and from what I remember of the the game it works quite well from a "less is more" standpoint.

 

[Roman]

Great stuff! The most elegant system so far I think is the 'matrix' system.

Among other things I would advocate basing hit point or life points on strength instead of constitution for greater realism, but I fear it would be too unbalancing and would make strength too important as an attribute compared to the others.

 

[The Human Target]

I'd stick to the six stats, but I would move the Will Save (and Cleric/Druid spellcasting) to Charisma and the Profession skill to Intelligence. I would rename Wisdom to Perception, both to clarify its purpose and to allow reckless, maniacal characters to take high Wisdom if they seem like they'd have keen senses.

Perception is a more logical combination of traits than the current Wisdom, and certain Wisdom traits make more sense as a function of Charisma. Thus, you have a more logical system that is still relatively simple.

Of course, certain races would need adjustments. The Orc's Wisdom penalty would go right out.

As for Comeliness or physical appearance-- screw it. Characters look the way the players want them to look, and beauty is too subjective to be neatly classified by a single statistic.

I agree with you 100%.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

I'd stick to the six stats, but I would move the Will Save (and Cleric/Druid spellcasting) to Charisma and the Profession skill to Intelligence. I would rename Wisdom to Perception, both to clarify its purpose and to allow reckless, maniacal characters to take high Wisdom if they seem like they'd have keen senses.

Perception is a more logical combination of traits than the current Wisdom, and certain Wisdom traits make more sense as a function of Charisma. Thus, you have a more logical system that is still relatively simple.

Of course, certain races would need adjustments. The Orc's Wisdom penalty would go right out.

I agree

As for Comeliness or physical appearance-- screw it. Characters look the way the players want them to look, and beauty is too subjective to be neatly classified by a single statistic.

I disagree. This is clearly what 1st level feats should cover.

 

[Trainz]

3 stats physical, mental, and beauty. 1d6. once for each stat. For every pt above 0 get +1 to what every die roll, and -1 for ever pt below 0.

Bingo.

Stats from 3-18 used to have a meaning in D&D (you would do a Str check on a d20 for example, and had to roll under your Str). With the new stat system, they serve absolutely no purpose.

You have a 4 in Str ? That's +4 to hit and damage (+6 dmg with two handed weapons).

I hate it when I have to check a monster's Str (34 or somesuch) and calculate how much of a bonus it actually means.

3-18 stats are an artefact of the old days that needs to go.

 

[The Human Target]

Bingo.

Stats from 3-18 used to have a meaning in D&D (you would do a Str check on a d20 for example, and had to roll under your Str). With the new stat system, they serve absolutely no purpose.

You have a 4 in Str ? That's +4 to hit and damage (+6 dmg with two handed weapons).

I hate it when I have to check a monster's Str (34 or somesuch) and calculate how much of a bonus it actually means.

3-18 stats are an artefact of the old days that needs to go.

But ...... how do you get a negative stat?

 

[Frostmarrow]

I'd split it into four scores a la GURPS:

Strength
Dex
Intelligence
Health/Con

Everything else can be based on Skill or class.

I agree with you, Henry. I'd prefer to have Str, Dex, Con, Spi but basically it's the same thing. Charisma and Intelligence is for the player to provide. Spirit is needed so you know how much spellpoints (or whatever) you get and how good you are at withstanding mental attacks.

 

[Chacal]

The problem with too many attributes is you have implausible contrasts. 18 Str and 7 Con. ?? What's going on??

Those stats are not necessarily imprlausible for some monsters and actually give some flexibility.
You can use prerequisites, or simple constraints on a race by race basis for the PC races, or adjudicate on a case by case bais by discussing with the players.


Chacal

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Stats from 3-18 used to have a meaning in D&D (you would do a Str check on a d20 for example, and had to roll under your Str).

The old system was flawed. "Make a strength check". Great. I must roll anything below 19 with my powerful fighter, no matter wheter I want to lift a bigger pebble or a castle. Besides, the finite system wasn't helping, either.

With the new stat system, they serve absolutely no purpose.

They do:
They serve as basis to calculate the modifier
They serve as prerequisites for Feats (Power Attack? Need Str 13)
They serve as prerequisite for Spellcasting (Want to cast level 7 spells. you need Int 17)
They serve as base for calculating carrying capacity.

You have a 4 in Str ? That's +4 to hit and damage (+6 dmg with two handed weapons).

You have a -4 in Str? Shouldn't that mean that you are weaker than helpless? You're so weak that others around you have to drop things? No, I wouldn't like to have a negative stat. Beside the fact that it wouldn't look D&D, there's also the thing that we had to put an arbitrary barrier in place: How far below 0 can it go? How much death poison can you absorb before you die from it? Con -287 isn't in, is it? I mean, we can have con below 0, so how far does it get?

Then there's the thing with increases. Every 4 levels, you can increase one of your ability scores. Not your modifier.

Next problem: Generation. How do you roll for a score that has a starting range of, say, -4 to +4? Keep in mind that we have a bell curve here, you cannot just roll a d10 and subtract 5 or something. And point buy would have to be overhauled, too.

What about ability damage or drain? At the moment, you can be drained or damaged for a single point (some effects even do a single point, not somethign like d4 which can come up with a 1, or 3...). This means that you only get a palpable penalty every other hit. So the new system either makes stuff like weak poisons or wounding weapons twice as lethal as before, or we introduce half-scores. "I've been poisoned, I now have Str +4.5" I don't want to go there.

I hate it when I have to check a monster's Str (34 or somesuch) and calculate how much of a bonus it actually means.

+12. It's so easy. After 4 years or so of playing d20 I have no problems whatsoever of deriving the modifier. Not that I had some 4 weeks after my first session.

3-18 stats are an artefact of the old days that needs to go.

It stays, unless you have a better solution. Negative Scores is not a solution.