About initiative

[KarinsDad]

What if the fighter kicking down the door was replaced by a wizard teleporting a party into the room? Would the casting be during the surprise round as well?

It could be, but it is not forced to be. It is up to the DM. He basically has two (reasonable) options:

1) Wizard casts Teleport spell post-combat (i.e. after inits rolled) as part of surprise round. Other PCs delay if their inits beat the Wizard's.

2) Wizard casts Teleport spell pre-combat (i.e. before inits rolled). There is only a surprise round if any of the NPCs do not notice the PCs suddenly in the room. If some NPCs failed to notice, the NPCs that did notice get to roll in the surprise round with the PCs. The ones who failed the checks are surprised.

Here is the issue. If you allow the Wizard to cast pre-combat and you auto-surprise the NPCs, then the Wizard gets to effectively do two Surprise round actions (teleport and something else). The reason it is effectively two Surprise round actions is that there is not a pre-combat point in time the NPCs can notice people teleporting into their room.

Looked at another way, the Wizard's Teleport spell is either pre-combat (and since it is still not yet combat, the NPCs get checks to notice people teleporting into the room), or the Wizard's Teleport spell is post-combat (after surprise round inits have been rolled) in which case he has to use a surprise round action to cast.

There is no middle ground. Pre-combat, or post-combat.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Bottom Line: KD is right.

No, he's really not. The DMG does not contradict the PHB, as he claims. He has simply applied an extremely narrow definition to the phrase "start of a battle," and rejected the more in-depth and illustrative explanation provided by the DMG.

 

[Jacen]

Why is kicking the door down an action that does auto-surprise when other actions do not?

They to the opening of door to surprise the NPC. And you don't need to use verbal components to open the door. What on the opening of the door I am ignoring? And why should opening of the door auto-igonre-surprise?

What is so special and mystical about opening a door that it has different rules (rules, not example) than other noticable actions?

What rules it has differently?

When you can answer these questions from a rules perspective (which rule supports a special case of the "open a door action"), then you will have ammunition for your POV.

Otherwise, you are just being inconsistent as a DM: opening a door is a special action that auto-surprises, casting a spell is not.

If the spell is a non verbal spell then casting of the spell will be a surprise. So am I now inconsistent about spells? If spell is instant through metamagic or something else, then it is surprise. Then am I NOW incosnsitent about spells too?

You have your point set and you don't even want to consider my point. You are wanting just more and more proves from me and don't bother to answer what makes your point corret. I have given you plenty of questions and examples that are giving me problems in your way of doing it. You haven't answered to any of them - except saying that it is not problem for everyone.

What if spellcaster cast silent fireball in the room. Do NPCs get rol to notice the blast? If they do and succeeds they aren't surprised or what?

 

[Jacen]

FWIW:

Opening the door must be an action during the surprise round. Whoever opens the door has just used up his/her/its surprise round. That's just how the RAW works. (Incidentally, that models RL pretty well too, but that's completely beside the point.)

Bottom Line: KD is right.

Give me rule that says, that opening the door must be surprise round action. I have noticed only one thing touching that and that is DMG example that just does it oppsitely.

This is not rules anymore but I am interested that how does that model RL? You kick the door in and that was surprise? Hell not one is now surprised and is what the heck untill you thow water baloon on him. And NOW starts the REAL combat.

 

[irdeggman]

Give me rule that says, that opening the door must be surprise round action. I have noticed only one thing touching that and that is DMG example that just does it oppsitely.

This is not rules anymore but I am interested that how does that model RL? You kick the door in and that was surprise? Hell not one is now surprised and is what the heck untill you thow water baloon on him. And NOW starts the REAL combat.

For what its worth I also agree with KD and Nail - and the three of use seldom to never agree.

What is the layout of the room?

If the PCs opening the door can see the NPCs then the NPCs also have a view of the door.

Changing the description of the room (i.e., opening the door) gives a Spot check - it could also gives a Listen check).

Kicking in the door and not opening it slowly (the OP had the door being kicked in) would most definitely negate having to perform any checks since the PCs are not trying to be quiet anymore. So once the door is open everyone is aware of everyone else. At that moment any surprise ends and initiative is rolled. But if the PCs had readied actions then those actions go off before the combat round starts (part of the definition of a ready action).

Now one of the options KD laid out was that in the "surprise round" the PCs who went before the the fighter who kicked open the door were delaying or readying actions for when the door was opened.

If the door was not opened in the suprise round then the PCs can not ready actions (since they don't have a surprise round action that they can use to do it).


And this does follow real life. Being surprised in real life is different than being sruprised in D&D. Suprised in D&D has a very specific mechanic involved.

In RL (using D&D mechanics) the door gets kicked in. Those inside are "surprised" by the sound but now get to roll initiative. Those entering the room have alreeady gotten their weapons ready (readied actions, etc.). Now those in the room must use precious actions to get their equipment ready in order to use it while those entering can save those actions to move and fight (or take full attacks with ranged weapons) - that those in the room can not do.


Tactical advantage is in the number of actions required to be used.

 

[KarinsDad]

Kicking in the door and not opening it slowly (the OP had the door being kicked in) would most definitely negate having to perform any checks since the PCs are not trying to be quiet anymore. So once the door is open everyone is aware of everyone else. At that moment any surprise ends and initiative is rolled. But if the PCs had readied actions then those actions go off before the combat round starts (part of the definition of a ready action).

I agree with what you posted except I have a question on this.

Your last sentence here states that their readied actions go off before combat starts.

The DMG states that readied actions should not be used outside of combat. So, did you mean readied actions (as in the rules for readied actions), or did you mean preparation actions (as in they all got ready pulling out weapons, etc. before the door was kicked in), or something else?

If the first, then the DMG suggests to not allow this. Course, this is the standard issue with characters (PC or NPC) who are aware before combat. I won't go down that path or we'll be discussing this until Christmas.

 

[irdeggman]

Your last sentence here states that their readied actions go off before combat starts.

The DMG states that readied actions should not be used outside of combat. So, did you mean readied actions (as in the rules for readied actions), or did you mean preparation actions (as in they all got ready pulling out weapons, etc. before the door was kicked in), or something else?

If the first, then the DMG suggests to not allow this. Course, this is the standard issue with characters (PC or NPC) who are aware before combat. I won't go down that path or we'll be discussing this until Christmas.

In a surprise round a character can do a standard action. Ready is a standard action.

In order to be able to do this you must have a surprise round so that you can have a ready action. And this pretty much matches what the DMG has for an example of the surprise round.

"Preparing" actions (or performing actions outside of combat) is the thing that is not "technically" defined.

The DMG is subordinate to the PHB for all conflicts (or potential conflicts) in rules pertaining to combat.

 

[KarinsDad]

They to the opening of door to surprise the NPC. And you don't need to use verbal components to open the door. What on the opening of the door I am ignoring? And why should opening of the door auto-igonre-surprise?

What rules it has differently?

If the spell is a non verbal spell then casting of the spell will be a surprise. So am I now inconsistent about spells? If spell is instant through metamagic or something else, then it is surprise. Then am I NOW incosnsitent about spells too?

You have your point set and you don't even want to consider my point. You are wanting just more and more proves from me and don't bother to answer what makes your point corret.

This is not true. I have quoted the rules for you and carefully explained how my POV follows them. You have not once quoted the rules and explained how your POV follows the rules. Your POV follows that one example.

I have also illustrated how your POV even follows the rules, but not in the way the rules suggest it be handled. Your POV is legal, but not as per the direction of RAW.

I have given you plenty of questions and examples that are giving me problems in your way of doing it. You haven't answered to any of them - except saying that it is not problem for everyone.

You are missing the point. The DM has two ways to run these types of scenarios: pre-combat or post-combat. If the door is locked and the DM thinks there might be problems with the idea of opening the door as part of the surprise round (i.e. post-combat and in the surprise round), he can easily not start the combat until the door is actually open (i.e. pre-combat open the door).

These problems you talk about are only in your mind. Any DM can easily avoid them by making the door opening pre-combat as opposed to post-combat if he thinks there will be a problem.

What if spellcaster cast silent fireball in the room. Do NPCs get rol to notice the blast? If they do and succeeds they aren't surprised or what?

Casting an offensive spell is a combat action. Opening a door is not.

Hence, casting a Fireball is always a post-combat action (if attacking creatures with it). Opening a door can be a pre-combat or post-combat action depending on what the DM decides.

Since casting Silent Fireball is post-combat, if any NPCs have line of sight to the caster, they get Spot checks to see if they notice him at the start of combat. If not, they are surprised (if they are out of line of sight, they cannot hear it because it is Silent). If none of the NPCs have line of sight to the caster, then this indeed is an auto-surprise situation.

Auto-surprise situations can occur. As an example, an Invisible caster casting a Silent spell. But, the open the door scenario is only an auto-surprise situation if the door is opened post-combat. The PCs use up the Standard Action of one of the PCs to open the door, the rest of the PCs auto-surprise the NPCs. If it is opened pre-combat, the NPCs get checks to notice the door opening.

Whether that makes sense or not to you is irrelevent. Those are the rules. Opening the door post-combat as part of the surprise round is the only way to auto-surprise in the open door scenario. Opening pre-combat does not guarantee surprise.

And the players do not decide if opening the door is pre-combat or post-combat, the DM decides. Some DMs might never make it post-combat because of the problems you mentioned (e.g. the door might be locked). Other DMs might.

But, that does not change the fact that the DM can decide on either of these two options and both are legal.


As for my question that you failed to answer here, I'll try to re-explain.

Casting a spell is an action. Opening a door is an action. Pulling out a weapon is an action. Drinking a potion is an action.

If the NPCs who are currently unaware of the PCs are capable of hearing or seeing the action, then they should get a check to notice the action.

Regardless of situation.

But for you, opening a door with an aware side on one side and an unaware side on the other does NOT give checks. My question is why not? You have yet to answer the question. You keep saying that is how you would do it, but you have not yet explained what is so special about the door action.

1) Why are the unaware NPCs auto-surprised in a scenario whem the aware PC opens a closed door?

2) Why are the unaware NPCs not auto-surprised in a scenario whem the aware PC Fighter takes a 5 foot step into an open doorway and pulls out his weapon?

3) Why are the unaware NPCs not auto-surprised in a scenario whem the aware PC Cleric casts a spell outside an open doorway, but out of view?

All three of these are identical situations from a start of combat perspective. They are all observable actions. They all consist of aware PCs trying to surprise and attack the NPCs. What is special about the door?


What is so special about opening a door that the unaware NPCs are auto-surprised? You are using different rules for the open the door action than you are the other actions, hence, you are being inconsistent.

I have no other way to explain it. You have yet to explain what is so special about the door situation that you use different rules with it (auto-surprise versus checks) than with other observable actions.

 

[KarinsDad]

No, he's really not. The DMG does not contradict the PHB, as he claims. He has simply applied an extremely narrow definition to the phrase "start of a battle," and rejected the more in-depth and illustrative explanation provided by the DMG.

Examples are not rules. The rules text takes precedence over examples. Since the example does not follow the suggested text, the example is in error, not the text.

If you have rules text that disagrees with my interpretation, please feel free to post it.

But that example is not worth the paper it is printed on.

 

[Nail]

No, he's really not.

Given the rules text he's cited? Yes he is.