About spells that seem useless because of duration

[Ridley's Cohort]

Seems like the developers are using a mindset more akin to Magic: the Gathering then actual role playing. Then again, the ads for 3.0 used to hype "getting D&D back into the dungeon..."

(Preventitive anti-snark): not bashing MtG in anyway. It's a good game. But the mechanics in 3.5 seem to be taking on a similar flavor...

It is a fair point.

Let me be the devil's advocate and say that at least they are trying to more consistently apply a coherent standard of power balance to everything. The yardstick in this case is small scale combat. If you do not like it, it is easy to houserule. The group I am in houseruled a few spells from 1 min/lvl to 10 min/lvl precisely because they were otherwise too weak for our style of play. If we ever shift to kick in the door mode, we may reconsider.

I strongly agree with Deset Gled. Invisibility was fair as a 2nd level spell for combat purposes. But the older versions would have been good deals when used outside of combat as a 3rd or even 4th level spell. As a 2nd level spell Invisibility made hiding abilities obselete, especially outside of combat. Similar story for Spider Climb.

 

[Li Shenron]

What reason was there for a rogue or ranger to take hide as a skill when this single 3rd level spell would take care of the problem entirely?

Probably the fact that a Rogue doesn't cast spells? You have to assume that someone is going to play a Wizard or Sorcerer, that he's going to learn the spell you need, that he's going to have the spell prepare when you need it (or an appropriate open slot), and that he's going to expend the slot to cast it on you.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Probably the fact that a Rogue doesn't cast spells? You have to assume that someone is going to play a Wizard or Sorcerer, that he's going to learn the spell you need, that he's going to have the spell prepare when you need it (or an appropriate open slot), and that he's going to expend the slot to cast it on you.

Or to put it another way....Why bother to be a rogue or ranger if you can be a wizard and have all the best rogue and ranger abilities at your fingertips? A couple open slots to prep on the fly, some scrolls, and a wand or two and the rogue becomes obselete for scouting.

Now it is not that bad in the various flavors of 3e. But it was that bad in 1e/2e.

The principle is to not make a major class ability into a minor ability of another class. It has nothing to with logic, logic does not tell you precisely what magic can or can not do. It is a flavor issue.

 

[beaver1024]

Or to put it another way....Why bother to be a rogue or ranger if you can be a wizard and have all the best rogue and ranger abilities at your fingertips? A couple open slots to prep on the fly, some scrolls, and a wand or two and the rogue becomes obselete for scouting.

Now it is not that bad in the various flavors of 3e. But it was that bad in 1e/2e.

The principle is to not make a major class ability into a minor ability of another class. It has nothing to with logic, logic does not tell you precisely what magic can or can not do. It is a flavor issue.

Wizards have the best rogue and ranger abilties? When did wizards get 8 skill points/lvl with a broad based class skill list? Hide and Move silently is only a small part of the rogue's arsenal.

Why is it that clerics have Chain Lightning, Horrid Wilting, Power Word: Kill etc then? A major ability of wiz/sorcs just became a minor ability of another class. Why is it that clerics get Divine Power. A MAJOR ability of martial classes (BAB) just became a minor ability of another class (only a 4th level cleric spell).

Is invisibility ubiquitous? Why is it that there are so many abilities that defeat it then? Blindsight, scent, tremorsense, true sight, see invisibility etc etc. When invisibility got nerfed why didn't any of those abilities get nerfed?

Flavour, like roleplaying benefits/restrictions, cannot be used to balance game mechanics.

 

[beaver1024]

I strongly agree with Deset Gled. Invisibility was fair as a 2nd level spell for combat purposes. But the older versions would have been good deals when used outside of combat as a 3rd or even 4th level spell. As a 2nd level spell Invisibility made hiding abilities obselete, especially outside of combat. Similar story for Spider Climb.

How can it be used for combat purposes when the first use cancel's it's effects. Invisibility in its current form is useless for everything.

Spider Climb changes makes even less sense than Invisbility changes. The changes are hardly consistent considering Levitate is better than Spider Climb in nearly every conceivable way and it's the same level.

 

[Apuglisi]

Fair enough. Personally I disagree. I'm sure my paladin would love to Turn Undead at 1st-level, or cast Holy Sword. They're certainly abilities strongly tied to the flavor of the class. But my pally has to wait, because like all the classes, he gains abilities gradually.
.

But druidas are supposed to be able to speak with animals...otherwise they should give me the ability as they give them to the paladin...Later
I am supposed to be one with Nature but I can not communicate with it...

Maybe 1min/lvl is ok if you make animals to react as a sentient being but they have an inteligence of 2...Is hard for me to believe that in 1 min I can get all the info I need...I dont see why that spell cant last for 10min/lvls

Maybe is just my feeling but I feel that everything is twisted toward combat more than anything else...For instance I have a great distasted for Evocation and I like Illusion but some spells from Illusion are hard to use because of duration

I know there are feats I could get but that is just partching.

We did a house rule..actually we separated druids spells into categories, changed some spells durations, etc...and we came with something quite interesting because now you have different kinds of druids...but is all House rules.

 

[Bauglir]

How can it be used for combat purposes when the first use cancel's it's effects. Invisibility in its current form is useless for everything.

Invisibility only drops when you attack. An invisible wizard or cleric can buff, heal, summon, or perform battlefield control (wall spells, etc) all without dropping the invisibility.

 

[Storyteller01]

Forgive my ignorance, but I was under the assumption that wizards had to prep all spells at one time (no leaving spell slots open). Is this a 3.5 addition?

As for the druids abilities and flavor of the character, I tend to agree with Apuglisi, but then again the concern of the game seems to be more oriented to combat. I guess WotC wanted to make a combat viable druid?

 

[Storyteller01]

Let me be the devil's advocate and say that at least they are trying to more consistently apply a coherent standard of power balance to everything. The yardstick in this case is small scale combat. If you do not like it, it is easy to houserule. The group I am in houseruled a few spells from 1 min/lvl to 10 min/lvl precisely because they were otherwise too weak for our style of play. If we ever shift to kick in the door mode, we may reconsider.

Agreed. But it is akin to using standards for a sports car to make an SUV. The Sports car is faster, flashy, and elegant but the SUV has greater, well..., utility. It should be able to do more and go to more places.

IMHO, the MtG yardstick just doesn't cut it for D&D. Too much is possible. Too many players with too many ideas to quantify everything into a single equation (the Druid being one of the best examples).

Maybe you can mix the two of them somehow(MtG IS based on wizard to wizard combat...)??

 

[Nail]

How can it be used for combat purposes when the first use cancel's it's effects. Invisibility in its current form is useless for everything.

Not at all!

Invisibility is an excellent low-level "escape" spell. Defensively cast, then do a move action. No AoOs.

Invisibility is still an excellent scouting spell...it just can't be used all day. How's that a bad thing? Remember: scouting information is most useful when it's current, so you don't really want hours of scouting time. Besides, what does the rest of the party do while the rogue (or Wiz!) is off scouting? (Boring!)

Spider Climb changes makes even less sense than Invisbility changes. The changes are hardly consistent considering Levitate is better than Spider Climb in nearly every conceivable way and it's the same level.

Not at all true. (Have you ever used either of them? Read Spider Climb again!) Spider climb, especially in a dungeon setting, is far more flexible and useful, in combat and out. And at 10 times the duration, Spider Climb is more likely to be "on-going" when battle begins.