About the myth or fact (?) of needing magical items

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Castles & Crusades is much easier to run a magic lite game in, and you can still use a lot of 3e material if you want to, just modified a bit to fit into the system. The design assumptions that are being argued about in terms of "expected amount of loot" is something I despise about 3.x.

 

[boredgremlin]

The point is, the mage CAN out AC the fighter any time he wants. And, let's not forget, the enemy mage only has to fight the party once. Heck, a stoneskin spell puts most fighters out of commission in a low magic game. That's the point. The mages and clerics get far more powerful than the other classes in a low magic game because they can simply supply their own. A cleric can get all the AC a fighter can get plus still buff. A low magic game heavily favours the spellcasters. That's the point I think is being made here.

Not really. It just requires combatants to be smarter. You jump in, make the spell caster use up his goodies. Then run like hell till they wear off. Having played in a low magic game for a few years i have seen players come up with all kinds of things to make up for the NPC spell casters protections. It just takes creativity and patience instead of a hack and slash mentality.

There are things a DM can do to help balance out a campaign like this too. The easiest is pushing some spells up to higher level or getting rid of them altogether. The flashy magic in the game doesnt really appeal to most people who like a low magic game anyway.

 

[ThirdWizard]

There are things a DM can do to help balance out a campaign like this too. The easiest is pushing some spells up to higher level or getting rid of them altogether. The flashy magic in the game doesnt really appeal to most people who like a low magic game anyway.

That's what we've been saying all along...

 

[Crothian]

The point is, the mage CAN out AC the fighter any time he wants. And, let's not forget, the enemy mage only has to fight the party once. Heck, a stoneskin spell puts most fighters out of commission in a low magic game. That's the point. The mages and clerics get far more powerful than the other classes in a low magic game because they can simply supply their own. A cleric can get all the AC a fighter can get plus still buff. A low magic game heavily favours the spellcasters. That's the point I think is being made here.

How come when people talk about a low magic game it is only low magic for the fighter and warrior types but never low magic for the spellcasters? Low magic is not low magic for half the party, its for everyone. If the DM leaves the spellcasters alone in his low magic campaign, then he's a pretty bad DM.

 

[ThirdWizard]

How come when people talk about a low magic game it is only low magic for the fighter and warrior types but never low magic for the spellcasters? Low magic is not low magic for half the party, its for everyone. If the DM leaves the spellcasters alone in his low magic campaign, then he's a pretty bad DM.

That is in rebuttal to a statement that you can have a wizard and a fighter in the same group, with low magical items, and the wizard won't be overpowered. The person actually doesn't think that it is necessary to change the wizard at all. You're actually agreeing with Hussar here.

 

[boredgremlin]

Changing the wizard is really only necesarry if your players dont want to be tactical. For the typical hack and slash style of D&D groups the wizard is overpowered in a low magic game.
But then again if the best you can come up with is "i scream and charge waving my sword" then i think a wizard probably should be able to laugh as he blows you into bits. It fits the wizard archetype from most fantasy novels better that way.

 

[ThirdWizard]

What about when the wizard is flying (60' movement) fireballing from the sky invisible with protection from arrows? What do the PCs do then? What do NPCs do when the PC does this?

 

[boredgremlin]

They go inside a building, cave or forest. The same as if your under attack from the air as a modern infantrymen. They wait for his spells to wear off or for him to be dumb enough to wander in where he cant fly around. Or they trust thier magic user to counter the enemy magic user.
Also goggles to see invis are simple miscelaneous magic and thus should be available in even a low magic game. Right along with the minor magic arrows that beat protection from arrows. Sounds like the mage would have to be at least 6th level. And by that time the party should have some basic protections.
On a side note, fly as a 3rd level spell is rediculous. Its too unbalancing and lasts too long. I have allways bumped it up to 4th and reduced the amount of time it lasts.

 

[Thanee]

What do the PCs do then? What do NPCs do when the PC does this?

They start complaining, that they don't want to play a hack'n'slash game?

WTH has this to do with hack'n'slash, anyways!?

“What?!? You cast a spell?!? Bah! Powergamer! This is a low magic, roleplaying game, not some hack'n'slash orgy, you cannot cast spells here, you are supposed to stand there and get slaughtered by the fighter!!1”



And what will happen when the wizards start to play smart... THEY have the high Int after all... and the magic.

Bye
Thanee

 

[LostSoul]

What about when the wizard is flying (60' movement) fireballing from the sky invisible with protection from arrows? What do the PCs do then? What do NPCs do when the PC does this?

I had a good laugh when I read this, because this is exactly what happened in my low-magic game.

The Wizard was starting to hit high levels (well, about 8th - but that was when things changed), and most of the combats saw him Hasted, Flying, and (Improved) Invisible. (3.0 by the way.) Those lowly NPCs could do nothing against him. Meanwhile, the fighter's getting beaten down and the rogue is hiding for dear life.

And I didn't allow the PC Wizard to buy scrolls and he very rarely found spellbooks, so he usually only had 2 to 4 spells of any given level.

I changed the scope of the game from low-magic to rare-magic. So the PCs became heavy-hitters and entered the major leagues. etc. Then they started fighting the other wizards who could compete with the PC's own. The fighter and rogue got some nifty items that balanced them out with the wizard.