D&D 5E Abuse Guidance even more with this one weird trick!

[Morrus]

Definite clickbait. I had to come in here to double check that it wasn't some new sort of spam I had to delete

I actually started to. Just caught myself in time.

 

[iserith]

The problem is, you cast guidance, and it lasts for a full minute for someone so they have a long time to decide how to use it and whether they want to use it at all.

What's the problem though?

 

[BoldItalic]

The problem is, you cast guidance, and it lasts for a full minute for someone so they have a long time to decide how to use it and whether they want to use it at all.

In combat, yes, a minute is a long time. But in exploration, a minute is a short time. For example, attempting to defuse a trap might be reckoned to take "a minute" or more. But it doesn't actually matter in this case.

If you follow the principle that dice are not rolled until the DM calls for them, the player who's PC is the target of Guidance doesn't know in advance whether the d4 is going to be a good or a poor roll until he commits himself to using it on a specific attempted action. He knows that he can opt to add d4 to upcoming the ability check and he can even decide after rolling the d20 if he thinks the result looks marginal and he is going to need to use it this time, but he shouldn't be rolling the d4 at all until he has decided to apply it, any more than he would be allowed to roll a few d20's in advance and then decide what checks to apply them to. He can choose to roll 1d20+1d4, or forget it and just roll 1d20, but he still has to make the roll(s) after announcing what he is attempting to do and the DM decides that a roll is appropriate.

 

[Mistwell]

So you guys are arguing the d4 must be rolled only once you have committed to a specific other d20 roll, even though you can specifically roll the d4 before the check itself? (Note I a pretty easily convinced on this one - I don't want the abuse ).

 

[iserith]

So you guys are arguing the d4 must be rolled only once you have committed to a specific other d20 roll, even though you can specifically roll the d4 before the check itself? (Note I a pretty easily convinced on this one - I don't want the abuse ).

You're not committing to a roll. You're committing to a fictional action. The roll is the mechanic the DM uses to help him or her narrate the results of the adventurers' action and that only happens when the outcome is uncertain. Since the player can't establish whether an outcome is certain or uncertain, there is no way to know with certainty whether any given fictional action will call for a check (though an experienced player can probably guess right more often than not). It's only when you're asked for a roll (after you've committed to the action) that you can decide to use the bonus from guidance, before or after the roll.

 

[BoldItalic]

So you guys are arguing the d4 must be rolled only once you have committed to a specific other d20 roll, even though you can specifically roll the d4 before the check itself? (Note I a pretty easily convinced on this one - I don't want the abuse ).

You can roll the d4 before the check (once it is established that there is to be a check) but it makes no sense to roll it before the action because you don't know if the DM will even require a check to resolve its outcome.

Consider this: the player is considering disarming a trap and expects to make a skill check. Guidance is cast. He rolls d4 prematurely, gets a "4" and thinks he will go ahead and make the attempt (this is the scenario presented in the OP). The DM asks how exactly he will approach the task of defusing the trap. He says that he will lift the lever, turn the dial to "6" and cut the cord. The DM decides that each of those sub-actions is trivially accomplished and no skill check is necessary, but that cutting the cord when the dial is not set to "3" will result in an explosion and calls for a saving throw. What purpose did the d4 roll serve, apart from giving the player a false sense of security? None. It wasn't rolled before a check, because there was no check.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

My take on it:

The spell states you can add the roll before or after the ability check, true enough. However, I believe it is inferring that it is a specific, single ability check...you don't get to roll "multiple d4's". Once you cast that d4, that is what's going to be used for whatever ability check you want up to the 1 minute duration.

I'd also say that with regards to how a game actually "flows", there is no instantly changing from one task to another in an instant. A PC normally can't travel back in time at will, basically. What I mean is that during the normal course of a game, we have this:

Player: I listen carefully at the door.
DM: Roll a Perception check.
Player: Rolls a d20, gets 10, then adds 4 for his perception = I got a total of 14; I guess I'll add my Guidance...rolls a 2; My total is a 16.

...the player could have chosen to not add the roll of 2, and in stead 'save it up' for use for a different ability check later on in that 1 minute span of the duration of the spell. The spell says you get to roll the d4 before or after, but it only says you get to roll the d4 *once*. The duration is up to 1 minute. Ergo, at any time during that minute you can roll a d4 and add that result to *one* ability check of your choice. You can do it immediately after rolling an ability check, or you can do it before...it doesn't matter. The d4 result stands for the duration of the spell.

What we *don't* have is:

Player: I listen carefully at the door.
DM Roll a Perception check.
Player: Rolls a d20, gets a 10...er, actually, what I was really doing was trying to recall my full name...so I guess that's an Int check then?
DM: Oh, ok. You recall your name.
Player: Good to know...so, I'll listen at the door I guess.
DM: Roll Perception.
Player: Ok, rolls a 2...I mean, what I'll do first is try and balance on one foot then touch my nose with one finger. Athletics right? Then I get a 3. Oops! Oh well, I guess I better listen at the door...
DM: Roll Perception then.
Player: Ok, rolls an 18...with my +5 for Perception I have 23. What did I hear?

That is *not* how a game runs. What the OP is contending is that it *is* run this way, with the character being able to "jump back in time to change his action". Just because you have Guidance on doesn't change what you are doing. If you say your are going to listen at the door, you are concentrating on listening at the door. When you roll a 1 for your Guidance, you can't just "change" your task of listening. Now, as DM, I'd say you don't have to apply that +1 to your Perception check...I'd let you keep it for some other ability check later within the 1 minute duration; but you don't get to "re-roll" it. But at the same time, the cleric could cast Guidance on you again, removing the +1, and granting you another d4 roll. If the cleric wants to 'waste' a spell over and over until you roll good on a d4, well, that's his/her choice. But once that die is casts, that is the result you use for that spell for your single ability check of your choice up to the 1 minute duration.

Hope that made sense!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Mistwell]

You're not committing to a roll. You're committing to a fictional action. The roll is the mechanic the DM uses to help him or her narrate the results of the adventurers' action and that only happens when the outcome is uncertain. Since the player can't establish whether an outcome is certain or uncertain, there is no way to know with certainty whether any given fictional action will call for a check (though an experienced player can probably guess right more often than not). It's only when you're asked for a roll (after you've committed to the action) that you can decide to use the bonus from guidance, before or after the roll.

Giving me a forge-like answer is just about always unpersuasive. I am surprised you didn't use the phrase "fictional positioning". Can you re-phrase in plain gaming language?

 

[Mistwell]

You can roll the d4 before the check (once it is established that there is to be a check) but it makes no sense to roll it before the action because you don't know if the DM will even require a check to resolve its outcome.

Consider this: the player is considering disarming a trap and expects to make a skill check. Guidance is cast. He rolls d4 prematurely, gets a "4" and thinks he will go ahead and make the attempt (this is the scenario presented in the OP). The DM asks how exactly he will approach the task of defusing the trap. He says that he will lift the lever, turn the dial to "6" and cut the cord. The DM decides that each of those sub-actions is trivially accomplished and no skill check is necessary, but that cutting the cord when the dial is not set to "3" will result in an explosion and calls for a saving throw. What purpose did the d4 roll serve, apart from giving the player a false sense of security? None. It wasn't rolled before a check, because there was no check.

I am going into a dangerous area. Guidance on me to help me with something that might come up - none of us know what. Can I roll the guidance die when I cast it, or not? That's the question.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I am going into a dangerous area. Guidance on me to help me with something that might come up - none of us know what. Can I roll the guidance die when I cast it, or not? That's the question.

By RAW, apparently yes. At my table, no.

Edit: or I could go strictly by RAW and say, "Sure you can roll it, but the PHB doesn't allow you to see the die you rolled. Roll it behind my screen and I'll keep track." That would satisfy both RAW and sanity, but it would also constitute being a jerk pointlessly. So I'd just stick to "roll it when you use it."