Abyss versus Far Realm

[Dausuul]

So, apparently we are going to have the Far Realm as a part of the core cosmology of 4E, rather than the bolt-on addition it was in 3.X.

What I wonder is how this fits with the Abyss. There seems to be an awful lot of conceptual overlap--each purports to be the realm of insanity, hideous abominations, and horrific evil. With the new focus on demons as "inhuman monsters out to destroy reality," that's even more true.

How do you think these planes should relate to each other? Is there really room for both, or should one of them be scrapped? If there's room for both, what ought the difference between them to be? And if one should be scrapped, which one and why?

 

[Scribble]

So, apparently we are going to have the Far Realm as a part of the core cosmology of 4E, rather than the bolt-on addition it was in 3.X.

What I wonder is how this fits with the Abyss. There seems to be an awful lot of conceptual overlap--each purports to be the realm of insanity, hideous abominations, and horrific evil. With the new focus on demons as "inhuman monsters out to destroy reality," that's even more true.

How do you think these planes should relate to each other? Is there really room for both, or should one of them be scrapped? If there's room for both, what ought the difference between them to be? And if one should be scrapped, which one and why?

My guess is the Abyss, is the realm of not insanity, but animalistic base chaos. A realm of giving in to ones basic desires or needs.

One could step into the Abyss and see it as a horrific chaotic place, but still maintain his own sense of self.

Far Realms ill be the land of true insanity.

Once you step into the farm realms maintaining your own self will be difficult...

To add to this: The abyss is more about say, tearing physical bodies up and causing death and pain...

Far relams is about tearing someone's mind up, and destroying one's ability to understand pain...

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I have a different interpretation of the differences.

The Abyss is a realm of immortal evil full of demons bent on destruction. It is a dark pit of hatred, anger, and the denizens therein are bent on causing destruction and pain 'because its fun'. The general goal of any abyssal type is to cause mortal suffering. If an abyssal demon sees a person on the street, it will run over and stab and torture him.

The Far Realm is a realm of cosmic evil with no discernable motivation. It is a nightmarish and twisted place devoid of anything resembling reason. The denizens of this realm cause destruction and pain due to simply not caring that the pursuit of their own goals will cause the destruction of mortal souls. The general goal of anything from the far realms is by definition impossible to comprehend. If something from the far realms saw a mortal on the street, it would probably not notice if it stepped on it.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Satori]

Tarrasque versus Cthulu

 

[Aloïsius]

This leads to the question : Which is stronger, ninjas or pirates ? I mean, what happens when Far Realms entity interact with the abyss, or vice-versa ? How do they view each other ? Tools ? Rivals ?
What happens if a city of mind-flayers is located near a portal to the abyss ? Which one will be corrupted by the other ?

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

Once you step into the farm realms maintaining your own self will be difficult...

You don't know how right you are. I know, I live in Wisconsin.

 

[Dausuul]

I have a different interpretation of the differences.

The Abyss is a realm of immortal evil full of demons bent on destruction. It is a dark pit of hatred, anger, and the denizens therein are bent on causing destruction and pain 'because its fun'. The general goal of any abyssal type is to cause mortal suffering. If an abyssal demon sees a person on the street, it will run over and stab and torture him.

The Far Realm is a realm of cosmic evil with no discernable motivation. It is a nightmarish and twisted place devoid of anything resembling reason. The denizens of this realm cause destruction and pain due to simply not caring that the pursuit of their own goals will cause the destruction of mortal souls. The general goal of anything from the far realms is by definition impossible to comprehend. If something from the far realms saw a mortal on the street, it would probably not notice if it stepped on it.

Do you really think that's enough to distinguish the two from a player perspective, though? My experience has been that the details of a monster's motivations and psychology, or the cosmological nuances of a given plane, are generally lost on players. One nightmarish realm of unreasoning chaos, full of horrible things with tentacles, looks much like another. Whether the denizens are attacking because they like to see people cry, or whether it's part of some incomprehensible alien scheme, doesn't much matter to the people fighting for their lives. They both boil down to "It's attacking you because it feels like it, and there is nothing you can do that will make it change its mind."

 

[Stormtalon]

I don't really see the Far Realm as being focused on destruction of everything, per se. The schtick of the place is that the motivations of its residents are simply incomprehensible to mortal minds. Thought, dimension, space, time -- they all function so differently from what people are used to that it appears chaotic to an extreme, although there may be some sort of underlying order and design to the place. It's just that the PCs (and the rest of the world they live in) simply can't begin to fathom what it might be.

It might even be that the two are ultimately totally incompatible and when the two attempt to mix/overlap, neither escapes "uncorrupted." So, where the Far Realm impinges on the "real world," plant and animal life changes in weird and unpredictable ways, but within the Far Realm itself, a small canker of "normalness" might be created. Beings that originated in the Far Realm (aboleths, illithids, etc) upon moving into the normal world find themselves, perhaps unknowingly, altered such that they become at least somewhat comprehensible to the natives, and conversely would be viewed as corrupt and impure by their brethren "back home."

The Abyss, meanwhile is understandable. It is a roiling tempest of hatred for all existence. The motives of those who reside there are likewise easy to comprehend: they simply exist to kill, destroy and unmake everything within their reach. Some may have long-reaching plans that encompass years and many seemingly unconnected events, but in the end they all aim towards the same goal: destruction of as much as they can encompass within their grasp and reach.

They're quite distinct concepts -- and each has its own place in the cosmology.

 

[Scribble]

You don't know how right you are. I know, I live in Wisconsin.

Begone evil minion of cheese!!!

 

[Desdichado]

They don't have a substantial enough distinction.

The idea that "they're so alien we can't understand it, but the Abyss isn't alien---just really FUBARed" doesn't work. If we can't understand it, we can't present it to our players. Therefore we end up falling back on the exact same conventions and tropes as the Abyss uses.

Besides, the Abyss has gotten much more Lovecraftian in recent years, with detail on guys like Dagon, etc. surfacing.

Then again, I think all this splitting of fiends into all these different races is overlap/overkill anyway. In my settings, a fiend is a fiend is a fiend, even when it's not. Any evil outsider is a fiend. Demons. Devils. Yugoloths. Efreet. Night hags. Heck, Slaadi. I can't see the point of having them all be fundamentally different in concept, but fundamentally the same in execution.

Once you step into the farm realms maintaining your own self will be difficult...

It is hard to assert your individuality when you're spending so much time milking the cows, plowing the fields, bailing hay, etc.