D&D 4E AC exists in 4e... but do Reflex Saves?

[Branduil]

We know that the concept of AC still exists in 4e... but is there any reason AC couldn't be the equivalent of Reflex Defense in Saga? In other words, is there a reason to still have Reflex Saves, especially if saves are static and not rolls? Couldn't you just use Touch AC for things like Fireball?

 

[Mouseferatu]

They've already pretty much stated (though I can't recall the source off the top of my head) that they're going with the static defenses (a la Saga) rather than the traditional "defender rolls" saving throws.

 

[Branduil]

They've already pretty much stated (though I can't recall the source off the top of my head) that they're going with the static defenses (a la Saga) rather than the traditional "defender rolls" saving throws.

Yes, I'm aware of that, which is why I'm wondering aloud if there is a reason for Reflex Saves to exist any more. Saga doesn't have anything called AC, but Reflex Defense is pretty much the same thing.

In D&D you'd probably have to use Touch AC against spells and such, since Armor stacking works differently than in Saga.

 

[Li Shenron]

They've already pretty much stated (though I can't recall the source off the top of my head) that they're going with the static defenses (a la Saga) rather than the traditional "defender rolls" saving throws.

I can see the mechanical advantage, of having to roll 1 die per spell instead of 1 die per target.

But the idea of switching from

"you see a sphere of fire coming towards you at lightning speed... QUICK! roll a reflex save!!"

to

"you see a sphere of fire coming towards you at lightning speed... and miss you"

is pretty appalling :/

 

[Shayuri]

Well, I think some of the drama could be retained with:

DM: "You see a huge ball of flame coming towards you at lightning speed..." *rolls dice* "...engulfing Billy and John, while Bob and Sue manage to dive for cover!"

It'd be nice if they'd give a bit of guidance as to how to narrate reflex saves though...they obviously don't involve MOVEMENT, since neither position nor orientation change. But how can two adjacent people take such wildly different damage while neither moves?

Obviously it won't always mean the same thing every time, but some guidance, and perhaps rules to support it, would be nice. Like that feat, Dive For Cover that lets you reroll Ref saves at the cost of going prone... Maybe allow up to a square of movement or a change in orientation on a successful Reflex save... I dunno...

Then again, talk about adding time to gameplay.

...this got rambling fast. I'll force myself to stop now.

 

[Danzauker]

I can see the mechanical advantage, of having to roll 1 die per spell instead of 1 die per target.

But the idea of switching from

"you see a sphere of fire coming towards you at lightning speed... QUICK! roll a reflex save!!"

to

"you see a sphere of fire coming towards you at lightning speed... and miss you"

is pretty appalling :/

It's just the reverse of having a wizard say "I throw a fireball on those orcs" and the DM "sorry. missed".

I agree that for players, the more they roll the dice, the more they feel involved in the game.

Why not then, as a DM, whenever you have a spell to shoot on your players, ask one of them to roll the die? It doesn't matter who rolls the dice after all (unless you want to fumble of course).

 

[fuindordm]

Assuming that they haven't made DR much more pervasive, incorporated Fortitude saves to resist damage, and all that Jazz, I think it makes sense for AC and Reflex to be distinct. I would expand the role of the latter a bit, though:

AC: defense vs. weapon (manufactured or natural) attacks
Reflex: defense against touch attacks and area effects

Both should increase with level like a saving throw. Wearing armor would then raise AC while lowering Reflex.

 

[Branduil]

Assuming that they haven't made DR much more pervasive, incorporated Fortitude saves to resist damage, and all that Jazz, I think it makes sense for AC and Reflex to be distinct. I would expand the role of the latter a bit, though:

AC: defense vs. weapon (manufactured or natural) attacks
Reflex: defense against touch attacks and area effects

Both should increase with level like a saving throw. Wearing armor would then raise AC while lowering Reflex.

So keep them separate, but roll Touch AC into Reflex Defense? I can definitely see them doing it that way.

 

[Philip]

But the idea of switching from

"you see a sphere of fire coming towards you at lightning speed... QUICK! roll a reflex save!!"

to

"you see a sphere of fire coming towards you at lightning speed... and miss you"

is pretty appalling :/

The Ogre hefts his club and swings at your head (DM rolls dice) and misses you.

The wizard mumbles some arcane words and a sphere of fire appears coming towards you at lightning speed (DM rolls dice) and misses you.

Being attacked is still exciting right? So will being the subject to spells. You just got to work on your timing to create the suspense you desire.

Rolling in the open helps to create suspense in cases of attacker rolls.

 

[Exen Trik]

My only problem with using one roll with the caster is if your targets have similar defenses, it all or nothing: you roll high enough to get them all, or you miss them all. I dunno, maybe they'll address that somehow, but I don't see how it could be faster than saving throws in that case. Mob rules perhaps?

As far as reflex saves vs AC, I can see why they would be rolled together. It might not be too bad either, if spells are basically use touch AC. I'd still prefer it to be separate though, the two defenses have a different feel to them.