AC or DR

[Yeoman]

I like the AC option as it is now. I didn't like the variable ac modifiers by weapon type from 2nd, and I've never really liked the Armor as DR system.

 

[argo]

I don't care as long as the system is designed to support whichever mechanic it uses. For example, without alot of changes, armor as DR doesn't work with d20. Power attack turn the drop in AC into extra damage that then blows through the DR. It works even better with 2 handed weapons. Without proper implementation, all you do is hose certain character concepts. Doing armor as DR requires alot of thought in setting up damage and DR ranges, attacks versus defense, # of attacks, etc.

To this list I'll add another small change that most people seem to overlook. With armor=AC the difference between your normal AC and touch AC is usually significant. Creatures with touch attacks (incorporal undead) become more threatening, special attacks that begin with touch attacks (trip, grapple) become attractive options for situations where your attack bonus does not stack up and non-combatants with poor attack bonuses can still use special attack forms (wizards with ray spells) while remaining inept with normal weapons. But with armor=DR your normal defense value and your touch DV are usually the same or very close thus negating the special advantage of touch attacks.

But I still perfer armor=DR. Yes you do have to deal with those ripple effects in the system but if done right I find it to be more satisfying.

Hope that helps.

 

[Jdvn1]

Huh? How would armor granting DR affect these creatures?

Now yes having Natural "armor" act as DR (which it really should) would, but obviously it would have to be implemented in a balanced way (the variant presented in Unearthed Arcana is a good starting point.

Yes, sorry, I was jumping ahead of myself. If you're going to use the 'both' variant from UA then I don't see why you'd consider using armor as 'just DR'. Seems inconsistent.

Thats extremely debateble. Attack bonuses and AC dont really scale very well in the current system. I think converting many of the things that add to armor class into simple damage prevention would help this in the long run, as well as being more logical.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'scale well'. I don't see a problem with how it scales, myself. Making DR scale, though, creates problems with how damage and AC scale.

Besides which, forums like this exist in part for people to discuss changes to the rules...so saying that the system works and one shouldnt change it in any way is simply...incorect. For many, it doesnt work.

And furthermore, the original poster isnt actually proposing changes to the D&D system...he's gathering info and ideas for a new system.

Oh, I agree that forums exist to discuss changes to the rules... but also to discuss why the rules shouldn't be changed. They exist to discuss, and both sides of the coin are valid topics, I think. I don't think expressing or discussing my own opinion would be "incorrect."

 

[argo]

Anyhow, although I voted for DR, I'm still wondering why it's often thought of as being more 'gritty'. Any reasons for this?

I think mostly because those systems which have adopted armor=DR have also adopted other changes that make the game more "gritty". SW has WP/VP where a lucky crit can drop you in one hit. Conan has a lower massive damage threshold that ups the body count. Grim Tales has several mechanics that can make the game more "gritty" and so forth and so on.

Later.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I think mostly because those systems which have adopted armor=DR have also adopted other changes that make the game more "gritty". SW has WP/VP where a lucky crit can drop you in one hit. Conan has a lower massive damage threshold that ups the body count. Grim Tales has several mechanics that can make the game more "gritty" and so forth and so on.

Yeh. That's pretty much what I was thinking, having tried Star Wars, Conan and others. So I'm still left wondering what it is about DR itself. . .

Well, maybe it is just those associations. OK. (?)

I haven't found DR+Defence any more or less 'gritty' than AC+AC, myself.

 

[glass]

I voted for DR, in the sense that I would prefer armour that reduces damage, although I'd prefer to term it 'soak', or somesuch as DR is already a game-defined term with specific meaning and connotations. I'd probably prefer a mixed system, where armour contributed soak plus a small contribution to defence (0 for padded upto maybe +4 for shaped armour like full plate).

Obviously, there are some issues, but I think they could be worked out and, for me at least, that would really help SoD.


glass.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Having seen it in play in Star Wars, Iron Heroes, and using is as a variant in a D&D campaign, I'll definitely say I like Armor as DR.

What I've noticed in d20 Star Wars, though, is that you tend to get hit an awful lot - even with class bonuses to AC. And, in d20 SW, Armor's DR doesn't protect you against Vitality damage, so you tend to go through a lot of hit points very, very quickly.

 

[Bastoche]

Bah. WRONG!

My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die.

If you stab me in the foot with a knife, am I disabled? No. I am in pain, yeah, but not disabled. If you hit me on the head with a hammer, am I disabled? Maybe. If you hit me 10 times on the head with a hammer, am I dead or diabled? Probably.

You never got hit by a hammer in the head apparently...

Realisitically, damage is somewhere in between, I have 300 hp and can survive falling off the empire state, and if you hit me with a broomstick, I am now disabled.

The hit point system (at least in 3E) represent the ability you have to make a deadly stike becoming a mere scratch. It's some sort of "avoidance" of damage. Not the superman-like ability to keep going with a slit throat.

This is the other thing about armor... lets take the hammer. If I am wearing a hard hat, and you hit me on the head with a hammer 10 times, I might be a little dizzy and annoyed, but I definitely won't be dead or disabled. Does wearing a hardhat make it easier for me to avoid getting hit with the hammer? No, not really.

I really really think you never ever got hit on the head (even with a helmet) by a hammer.

See thats just a little to "realistic" for a fantasy game. Or a movie...or a book...or really any form of storytelling.

Agreed and granted

Exactly.

(about the hit on the helmet). It makes you harder to hit because a compentent fighter will avoid hitting you on the head, he will try to hit you in the face or anywhere else you're not protected, hence the AC. The fighter who tries to hit as hard as possible to hurt someone through armor is a... well Eric's grandmother wouldn't like to hear what I think such a fighter is...

As a real life example: take a policeman with a bullet proof vest. Do you truly believe that after a hit the cop will keep running? Hell no! He's quite stunned and probably has a broken rib or something. Granted, a sword probably never strikes as hard as a bullet, but the comparison remains. Have you ever hit yourself on a thumb with a hammer? Usually, do you keep drive the nail home or do you stop whinning about your finger dancing around throwing curses? Well, now imagine you received a well aimed sword hit!

Did you know that sword fighters had as a strategy to strike as hard as possible on a helmeted guy to stun him? It works.

Of all the fighting schools that I know of, the first thing the teach is "Don't try to pierce a full plate". You must find a hole. Even a leather armor is hard to pierce. D&D enthousiast should spend more time on the ARMA website... Lots of good stuff there.

 

[Bastoche]

Posts joined to avoid confusion.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Real men prefer Armor as DR/-.

X/adamantine.

X/- should be reserved for toughness bonuses or creatures in adamantine armor.

DR other than /- is possible, ideally I'd like to see it as
Nonmagical Armor: /Magic or Adamant

I really don't think a +1 weapon should be able to disregard non-magical platemail. That makes magical weapons entirely too powerful. (Besides, the damage bonus on a magical weapon covers this nicely.)

On the other hand, I really haven't seen a form of magical armor that I like under Armor as DR rules. (Though, I think adding the enhancement bonus as an equipment bonus to Massive Damage Saves would be a start...)