Academic Studies Recent Edition Wars

[Greg K]

WotC's view was that "Hey, we spent millions of dollars and countless hours working on that, and you turn around and publish it without any effort on your part."

Except as mentioned several times over the years on these boards that WOTC had said in their faq that someone could do it and, basically, dared others to do it. And, you have been here long enough to have seen those posts (IIRC, people have pointed you specifically to those quotes in the past).

Edit: In case I am mistaken and you were not one of the people directed to the faq, here is the quote

"
Q: Could I publish the whole thing?

A: Sure. If you think someone would be willing to pay for it, you're more than welcome to try."

 

[Jack99]

It was a hypothetical scenario where Pathfinder becomes the #1 bestselling RPG.

In general the only way anybody will know the value of Pathfinder, is what price a publicly traded company is able to buy Paizo at and how the goodwill is taken into account on the publicly traded company's 10K.

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwill_(accounting)"

At the present time, I wouldn't be surprised to see Paizo's equity value being that of a small publishing company which doesn't have much of a historical back catalog of intellectual property which can collect royalties.



I question that 6-7 million D&D players figure. Where did it come from and how exactly was it obtained?

Though with that being said, I wouldn't be surprised to find that most casual players will be largely clueless about PFRPG. The only exceptions would be the casual players who have been talked into playing an alpha or beta version of Pathfinder.

Official numbers released by WotC, not only to us, but also to the courts for the different court cases.

 

[ggroy]

Official numbers released by WotC, not only to us, but also to the courts for the different court cases.

Do you have any links or references?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What do you think is the likelihood of Hasbro/WotC buying up Paizo in a friendly merger/acquisition, and then rebranding Pathfinder as 5E D&D?

I could see the acquisition happening if Pathfinder proved to be a significant game in the market. By that, I mean a contender to dethrone D&D as the top FRPG. Of course, then someone could raise antitrust issues...

But rebranding it as 5ED? That I don't see.

Its similar enough to 3.5 that they may simply take the best of Pathfinder and the best of 3.5 into a new game...called Pathfinder 2Ed (or whatever Ed it would be if/when the merger occurred).

To do otherwise would make it seem like 4Ed was a mistake, and that WotC/Hasbro was backstepping...AND it would alienate the legion of 4Edphiles who might then launch some 3PP analog of 4Ed.

Its still an unlikely scenario, though. They haven't purchased any other game that mimics their IP- Hackmaster, Midnight, C&C, AU/AE all resemble past versions of D&D in some way, and yet they are still independently produced.

 

[ggroy]

But rebranding it as 5ED? That I don't see.

Its similar enough to 3.5 that they may simply take the best of Pathfinder and the best of 3.5 into a new game...called Pathfinder 2Ed (or whatever Ed it would be if/when the merger occurred).

To do otherwise would make it seem like 4Ed was a mistake, and that WotC/Hasbro was backstepping...AND it would alienate the legion of 4Edphiles who might then launch some 3PP analog of 4Ed.

One "lazy" way of going about it would be to "shoehorn" various 4E-isms onto 3.5E/Pathfinder, such as:

- static player hit points
- healing surges, second winds
- replace the 3.5E/PFRPG way of creating encounters, with the 4E version of creating encounters
- fortitude, reflex, and will as static defense stats
- replace 3.5E/PFRPG's saving throws, with the 4E saving throw system or another saving throw system (ie. such as Castles & Crusades's saving throw system)
- every class leveling up at the same XP's
- use the 4E base attack modifier of level/2, instead of the 3.5E version
- eliminate the 4E class powers system

I suppose one could start off from the 3.5E SRD, and proceed from it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

One "lazy" way of going about it would be to "shoehorn" various 4E-isms onto 3.5E/Pathfinder, such as:

- static player hit points
- healing surges, second winds
- replace the 3.5E/PFRPG way of creating encounters, with the 4E version of creating encounters
- fortitude, reflex, and will as static defense stats
- replace 3.5E/PFRPG's saving throws, with the 4E saving throw system or another saving throw system (ie. such as Castles & Crusades's saving throw system)
- every class leveling up at the same XP's
- use the 4E base attack modifier of level/2, instead of the 3.5E version
- eliminate the 4E class powers system

I suppose one could start off from the 3.5E SRD, and proceed from it.

Why would they do such a thing?

Those who love Pathfinder/3.X generally don't care for 4Ed all that much. Such games still exist because of the continued demand for a 3.X-style ruleset...and that differs greatly from 4Ed (and its likely future iterations).

I, for example, am strongly considering Pathfinder, True20 & W&W to add to my collection...but if any of those added half of the 4Ed-isms you mention in a future edition, I probably wouldn't buy that future edition.

Similarly, even were you to do such a thing, you'd have to tread carefully to avoid alienating the early & enthusiastic adopters of 4Ed. Too much 3.X style stuff- like getting rid of the 4Ed style powers system- would be met with the same kind of howls of protest as introducing them elicited from those who have not (and will not) adopt 4Ed over 3.X.

 

[ggroy]

Why would they do such a thing?

To minimize possible alienation of the 4E crowd when rebranding 3.5E/Pathfinder as a 5E D&D.

In practice, I would probably agree that shoehorning 4E-isms into 3.5E/Pathfinder and releasing it as a hypothetical "5E D&D" in a few years may not go over so well.

Though this would be highly dependent on what happens between now and a possible future, when such a hypothetical "5E D&D" is released. If 4E ends up being relatively short lived with Hasbro closing down the tabletop pen-and-paper D&D division for a generation and shelving the D&D intellectual property, another future generation's minds may be possibly completely fresh to the idea of such a hypothetical combination of 4E and 3.5E being reintroduced as "5E D&D", possibly without as many "grognards" being around by then.

This would all be moot if Hasbro ends up closing down the tabletop pen-and-paper D&D division anyways, and ends up licensing out the D&D brand name for tabletop RPGs. In a possible second hypothetical scenario, Paizo could be the recipient of such a licensing agreement where Pathfinder RPG is essentially rebranded as a "5E D&D". It may turn off and alienate the 4E crowd, but nevertheless Paizo is formally not Hasbro/WotC and probably will not have as much legacy "baggage" as WotC/TSR.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I know that's the fear, but...

I'll give free XP to anyone who comes up with an even semi plausible explanation of how this could be done. Its contract law, not witchery.

I imagine that WotC would give more than free XP.


RC

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

This appears on every thread about the OGL or GSl, and IT'S WRONG IN EVERY FREAKING ONE. GOOD CHRIST, every one of those threads, right after that accusation is made, shows how, oh wait, no, it was actually stated "Hah hah if a developer can reprint the 3e rules and make money, man, go for it." So that's what Monogoose did. And yet people continue to point at it and claim this was badwrong and how WotC hates them for it. Despite that being the opposite of what actually happened.

Cirno, it was badwrong.

The OGL was designed to allow third parties to make supplements for D&D, not whole new games that would compete with it.

The whole thing was an example of the Tragedy of the Commons

Besides, I believe that the gaming community is better served by people making new systems, rather than staying inside the limitations of 3.5 D20

Case in point, the new Song of Ice and Fire RPG by Green Ronin is a lot more interesting with its own system than it was when it was just another Fantasy D20 game

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

What do you think is the likelihood of Hasbro/WotC buying up Paizo in a friendly merger/acquisition, and then rebranding Pathfinder as 5E D&D?

Not a chance.