Accurate staff as a weapon?

[BobTheNob]

Correct.

Thanks, I found that part in PHB P.195.

And the related question. If I were a fighter and has Fighter Weapon Talent (two-handed weapons), and used a staff as an implement, can I get +1 to attack rolls?

I guess in this case the answer is yes. Because there is no mention that this feature is applied only to weapon attacks.

Yes, by wording, it is true. But we are rational beings...cant we apply some common sense? A fighter casting spells more accurately than a caster?

Look at how errata is unfolding. There is plenty to suggest that fighter bonus applying to implements is just errata waiting to happen.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yes, by wording, it is true. But we are rational beings...cant we apply some common sense? A fighter casting spells more accurately than a caster?

"Common Sense" on these boards is often illogical, and has little to do with what makes sense, nor with beliefs that are common.

The character in question would be a multiclass fighter that has developed ways to suppliment his weapon techniques with spell casting prowess.

Multiclassing does not imply that you can't use your class features with your new powers; quite the opposite, it implies that your new powers should be selected in a way to dovetail nicely with your class features.


Also, what if the fighter multiclassed into Swordmage, Warden, Battlemind or Paladin? Your common sense would go... don't see a problem here.

But then, there IS a problem, because by your -logic- the fighter is casting spells better than a caster. Or evocations, disciplines, or prayers.


In a game where the only non-casters are fighters, rogues, rangers, and warlords, and the fighter has an accuracy bonus, they already by default are more accurate than casters... and that accuracy bonus is not restricted to martial powers.

Of course, that's if you're not playing in a game setting where the martial power source runs similar to how swordplay works in wuxia films....

Look at how errata is unfolding. There is plenty to suggest that fighter bonus applying to implements is just errata waiting to happen.

RAW is not the same as Rules-as-Madame-Cleo-Predicts-Them-To-Be.

Speculation is good, but it is not useful for interpreting game rules as they are now.

 

[DracoSuave]

Can't I? When a character is using a double weapon as an implement, should he use his primary head to make an implement attack? I have been thinking that he can choose to use either the primary head or the secondary head, both in case of implement attack and weapon attack.

I know it seems kinda hinky, so I did some further examination.

Double weapon is not a weapon property. So using a double weapon with an implement attack is perfectly okay. 'Defensive', 'stout', 'off-hand' are, however, weapon properties. That means that while you use an implement power, they cannot in any way apply to that power.

Stout allows you to use the weapon as a two-handed weapon. This creates the odd corner case where a Fighter weapon talent -stops- applying to a quarterstaff because you took Staff Fighting. Double Weapons are a separate class from two-handed weapons, and are treated as one-handed weapons. It's the stout property that makes two-handed weapon talent work with them. Turn this off, no two-handed weapon talent.

Defensive 99.99% of the time doesn't either, but if you happen to attack yourself with your own power (for whatever reason) you do not get the benefit of defensive. But defensive applies to AC anyways, so it's not like it mattered in the first place.

Off-hand doesn't grant a benefit to implements (you can wield two implements unlike weapons) so it's lack of applying doesn't change what you can do with a double weapon like it would with Weapon attacks. However, that means that because it does not exist for the implement attack, Tempest Fighting technique cannot apply.

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To sum up:

Double weapon is a weapon class, not a weapon property, so it works fine with implement attacks. Off-hand is a weapon property, and so it cannot work with implement attacks. You cannot use weapon properties with implement attacks.

Clear?

 

[Shin Okada]

Double weapon is not a weapon property. So using a double weapon with an implement attack is perfectly okay. 'Defensive', 'stout', 'off-hand' are, however, weapon properties. That means that while you use an implement power, they cannot in any way apply to that power.

That seems to be logical. Thanks.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I don't agree completely with DS's reasoning (a dangerous thing, I know, but)...

In regards to "defensive", it triggers when you are attacked. Whose to say if when you are attacked you are treating it as a weapon or an implement? Given that there is no language anywhere in the rules (or at least, that I am aware of) as to whether you treat an item as a weapon or an implement when you aren't actually attacking with it/using it, I would argue that the defensive bonus is actually static, and triggers regardless of how you last used the item.

Stout and off-hand, however, I would agree they don't apply to implements, except insofar as they may trigger defensive abiliteis.

 

[DracoSuave]

I don't agree completely with DS's reasoning (a dangerous thing, I know, but)...

Oh!?

In regards to "defensive", it triggers when you are attacked. Whose to say if when you are attacked you are treating it as a weapon or an implement? Given that there is no language anywhere in the rules (or at least, that I am aware of) as to whether you treat an item as a weapon or an implement when you aren't actually attacking with it/using it, I would argue that the defensive bonus is actually static, and triggers regardless of how you last used the item.

Absolutely, the only time Defensive does not apply is when you attack yourself. Even if someone uses a power that attacks as an interrupt or reaction to your attack, the denial of weapon properties not concerned with -other- creature's powers. Only -your- powers can deactivate your weapon properties.

Once you're done your implement attack, the weapon moves right on back to being what it always is. And if you need defensive because another enemy attacks you, it works perfectly normally for that attack, of course.

Stout and off-hand, however, I would agree they don't apply to implements, except insofar as they may trigger defensive abiliteis.

If those defensive abilities are towards your own implement powers, or you're using an implement power as a defensive ability, they will not apply. Otherwise, yes.