Acrobatics vs. Athletics

[Black Knight Irios]

Yeah my opinion is that Acrobatics and Athletics should be used interchangably, much like Intimidate and Diplomacy. The *situation* you use them in may be different, but the *results* are the same. Strength (Athletics) will get you up the slope more quickly and makes it easier to find purchase, but dexterity (Acrobatics) will help handle difficult surfaces and use purchases more effectively. Irregardless of which one you use, both will get you up the mountain.

It's a shame we lost the synergy bonus in the 3.5 to 4E transition, but ah well. I know many DMs will use Athletics to the exclusion of Acrobatics, much like many DMs use Diplomacy to the exclusion of Intimidate. I can't blame them when "climb" and "jump" are listed under the sole domain of Athletics in the RAW. I just try to not be one of "those guys" I guess.

How can you say that you can use them interchangeably by saying the results are the same when intimidate states that the target becomes hostile afterwards. This is not the same result. If you never care for the ensueing hostility and don't add consequences, you are right diplomacy and intimidate produce the same result.

If you think those skills do the same why do you have 4 skills instead of 2?

 

[Herschel]

Intimidate and Diplomacy are also based on the same ability score, just differ in how they're applied. As BNI said, the result of getting the info may be the same, but the result socially is quite different and should be meaningful in a RPG situation.

 

[knightofround]

How can you say that you can use them interchangeably by saying the results are the same when intimidate states that the target becomes hostile afterwards. This is not the same result. If you never care for the ensueing hostility and don't add consequences, you are right diplomacy and intimidate produce the same result.

If you think those skills do the same why do you have 4 skills instead of 2?

They are both social skills used to influence an NPC's actions. If you want an NPC to walk away and the NPC doesn't want to, you can either use Intimidate or Diplomacy. It's the difference between convincing someone to leave and intimidating someone to leave. Same result, different way to achieve it. Much like using Athletics or Acrobatics to climb a mountain.

And the rules do not say that the target becomes immediately hostile afterwords. Only that it "usually" does. And nothing in diplomacy says that it *doesn't* make people hostile, it's just more difficult to convince people who *are* hostile.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

They are both social skills used to influence an NPC's actions. If you want an NPC to walk away and the NPC doesn't want to, you can either use Intimidate or Diplomacy. It's the difference between convincing someone to leave and intimidating someone to leave. Same result, different way to achieve it. Much like using Athletics or Acrobatics to climb a mountain.

And the rules do not say that the target becomes immediately hostile afterwords. Only that it "usually" does. And nothing in diplomacy says that it *doesn't* make people hostile, it's just more difficult to convince people who *are* hostile.

The mentioning of the target of intimidate becoming usually hostile regardless of success should indicate that the outcome of diplomacy and intimidate are usually not the same. Inserting assumptions like diplomacy can turn targets hostile as well doesn't change the fact that by RAW it doesn't but intimidate usually makes them hostile.

Same for your athletics vs acrobatics to climb a mountain. Nowhere in the acrobatics skill description is mentioned that you can climb a mountain, yet you assume that this skill enables you to do it as well as someone with athletics. The only overlap those two skills have by RAW is that you can use them to escape from a grab.

You allow acrobatics users to "steal" from the athletics user, e.g. climb, what can the athletics users "steal" to compensate them?

 

[Saeviomagy]

The mentioning of the target of intimidate becoming usually hostile regardless of success should indicate that the outcome of diplomacy and intimidate are usually not the same. Inserting assumptions like diplomacy can turn targets hostile as well doesn't change the fact that by RAW it doesn't but intimidate usually makes them hostile.

Which doesn't really alter much except how the DM roleplays them.

That said, I don't think acrobatics and athletics should be used interchangeably, but I DO think that acrobatics desperately needs clarification on what it CAN be used for. Making jumps assisted by trapeze-style devices (ie swinging on a rope or chain etc), running up and along walls, and some hard mechanics for moving through opponent's squares (provoking, of course) would do for a start.