AD&D First Edition inferior?

[rounser]

Please express to me your (Bryan) problem with consistent, stream-lined mechanics, greater and more balanced strategies, etc...i have my doubts that anyone is positivly turned off by it.

3E streamlines what 1E did, but also adds it's own baggage in an attempt to make combat more fun, provide more options, and cover more rules-based resolution terrain in general.

It's possible to like the streamlined rules but not the new baggage/coverage of omissions from 1E, depending on how you view it....thus the multiple requests for a "3E Lite", with less such baggage.

 

[jasamcarl]

Ah rounser...

That i understand. But that is a substantive argument. I am trying to tackle this notion that their is NO commonly understood standard of 'quality', which i think is a flawed and simplistic epistomology or at the very least hypocritical. And as others have pointed out, a lot of the work of statting and such can be streamlined with short cuts and the balance of 3e would STILL be more tangible that earlier editions. So i ask again, where is this great horde of 1e devotees who find 3e so distasteful?

 

[Theuderic]

Well they aren't hanging out at En World!

 

[Dinkeldog]

Of course they're not hanging out at EN World. This is a d20/3E type website. People that don't want to switch are more likely to find a site that provides them more information that they can use for the game they want to play. It's the same as people that only want to play Gurps, Champions, or any other game.

Having said that, the 1E crowd demands that the 3E crowd keep an open mind on the values of playing the original 30-year old version. Some don't seem to want to offer the same courtesy. Some of these go trolling at message board forums like RPG.net. It's very similar to the situation when 2E came out, except that there wasn't really a developed internet then, so it was much more muted.

 

[Theuderic]

Having said that, the 1E crowd demands that the 3E crowd keep an open mind on the values of playing the original 30-year old version. Some don't seem to want to offer the same courtesy.

That's a generalization. I like playing 1E but I don't do that! I think you should be careful about lumping us all together like that. That's almost like being prejudiced if you ask me. The "1E crowd " ? What about people that enjoy both versions? Are they a hybrid? Are they crowdless? This is stereotyping.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

You are impressing no one by trying to play the "Youse a Munchkin!" card. And if Power Attack and flanking is causing you such trouble, there is no way I put any stock in your or your friends' ability to subtract.

The point stands that 1e failed to provide a "reasonable" amount of game balance for a certain type of player.

Now maybe game balance is not important to you -- a valid POV.

1. I'm not really concerned with impressing people I'll never meet face to face. Are you?

2. As a player power attacks and all those mods that can change from round to round are no problem. As a DM it's different. A lot different. When I have to keep track of five NPC's doing that stuff along with keeping track of all the players mods it's more than I care to do. It's not exactly calculus but it's a lot to keep track of. Combats take a lot more time in this edition.

3. Balance is good, but it's nothing that will ruin a game. DM's provide most of the balance anyway.

 

[Piratecat]

I love game balance. Heck, I'm almost a freak when it comes to game balance. But you know something? My 1e game was balanced, and my 2e game was too. I had to do a lot more tweaking to arrange it, but it worked out that way.

That's why I prefer 3e, I think. I'm having just as much (if not more) fun, and the rules are getting in my way a lot less. While a GM is ultimately responsible for game balance, a rules set can certainly simplify or complicate the job.

There's been something I've been meaning to try. I've thought about converting "Return to White Plume Mountain" to 3e, and lead the PCs up to the front door... then, as they stand there, flash back 30 years to their parents. Hand out new 1e PCs, bring out the 1e rules, and tun White Plume Mountain in 1e. Then, when they finish, flash back to the present and have them run through RtWPM with their 3e characters!

If nothing else helps you compare game systems, this will.

 

[Theuderic]

Hey that' sounds pretty cool. I wish I could play. You should run that adventure at Mcrays Keep.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

I'd love to play in a game like that, P-kitty.

 

[Ezrael]

If you wanted to be mean, you could do something even worse.

Tomb of Horrors. You could even run it in 1e, 2e AND 3e. Their grandparents, parents and them. (Now, I love WPM, but the idea of making people do the Tomb three times makes me grin.)