AD&D First Edition inferior?

[Storm Raven]

Now we are getting somewhere. Good one Storm Raven. Now you are reverting to telling people they are crazy. Very nice.

Hey, I was repsonding to a post in which an individual categorically claimed that power gaimg was easier in 3e than 1e. He's wrong, so wrong it is silly. In 1e, power gaming required a handlful of obvious tricks to push yourself over the top: a dual-wielding Grey Elven Fighter/Magic-User for example. In 3e you have to work to power game, and even when people claim they have made a broken character in 3e, they usually have missed some glaring weakness in their design.

 

[GENEWEIGEL]

Other than your say-so and a handful of anecdotes, what evidence do we have that a huge market is being neglected? What evidence do you intend to provide to show that there is a "huge market" of 1e players wanting to buy 1e stuff?

Gygax rules?

GYGAX STINKS!!!!


Original Greyhawk?

FORGOTTEN REALMS!!!!!


Positive?

NEGATIVE!!!!!


Paladins?

LAWYERS!!!!!!!!


Elves?

ORCS!!!!


USA?

FRANCE!!!!


Someone who isn't out to de-mythologize Gygax?

STORM RAVEN!!!!!!


Your honor I would like to enter into states evidence that Storm Raven will correct me for the misuse of the legal terms in this very sentence and the following which has already be stated:

Hackmaster.

GURPS!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Storm Raven]

And what evidence do you have to the contrary?

Well, one good indication is that WotC has done market research, has direct sales figures to work with (their own and Kenzer's by the way, since they licensed the right to make Hackmaster to Kenzer), and seems to have decided that it is not a "huge untapped market".

 

[Theuderic]

I suppose a rough guess could be had by comparing the relative sales of the Hackmaster PHB with the 3e D&D PHB. If we could get that, we could see just how bug the potential market might be.

Looking at Dragonsfoot.org and Kenzer & Co. is unlikely to provide meaningful data for the simple reason of scale. Suppose there is a base of 15,000 people who want 1e products. That seems large. That will likely fill up 1e based websites to brimming, making the number of 1e afficionadoes seem numerous.

But in an enviroment in which the PHB sells 500,000+ copies, are 15,000 people outside the tearget market really a "huge" market waiting to be tapped? I don't think so. On that scale, the 1e fans are small potatoes. [/QUOTE

Things aren't that simple. Only the hardcore gamers who have internet access and register at sites are represented.

 

[Storm Raven]

That's the way to be objective Storm Raven.

Umm, what exactly are you trying to say here? That the Gord books weren't used as an example of the flexible nature of 1e? (They were), or that they are good evidence of that despite the fact that they seriously bend the rules to accomodate the main character?

 

[Storm Raven]

Things aren't that simple. Only the hardcore gamers who have internet access and register at sites are represented.

Yes, and if just 10% of the hypothetical 15,000 1e afficionadoes fall into the category of "hardcore fans with internet access" then there would be 1,500 people who are registered for Dragonsfoot.org and the Kenzer site in my example. I don't have their total membership, but my guess is that it is far lower then 1,500 members.

 

[GENEWEIGEL]

Once more to the brink old enemy.

For hate's sake...

Oh crap it's already 5:35?

Dammit!

I gotta go home and watch the baby.

Keep that frame of mind I'll be back tomorrow.... VILLAIN!

 

[Theuderic]

Theuderic, do you know what a fallacy is?

Impressive,very impressive. Your mastery of the English language is quite something. I am humbled compared to your reasoning powers and acute observation. Yes I believe i have been converted. Like a Saxon I have been converted. I will play 3rd E. I will like 3rd E . I will see no fallacies in this.

 

[Storm Raven]

Someone who isn't out to de-mythologize Gygax?

STORM RAVEN!!!!!!

I'm not out to de-mythologize Gygax, I don't find him to be mythic to begin with. He's a game designer. He's done good things, he's made products that have set the industry standard at times. He's also made medicore products and some fairly lousy products.

Treating him like some deity does him no honor. It merely whitewashes a long and very human career. Yes, the Gord books were okay, no the statistical description of Gord contained in the books is not a testament to 1e being a really flexible game. It is that simple.

 

[Theuderic]

Yes, and if just 10% of the hypothetical 15,000 1e afficionadoes fall into the category of "hardcore fans with internet access" then there would be 1,500 people who are registered for Dragonsfoot.org and the Kenzer site in my example. I don't have their total membership, but my guess is that it is far lower then 1,500 members.

Say so tactics can be employed by either side of the fence. I am going to get the numbers myself somehow. I have a new mission!
Do you know what percentage of people are considered "hardcore" among the hobby? Lets both work together and get the facts shall we? I will contact you with the details and we will go from there. And yes I am crazy. I'm using the computer at the hospital right now as we speak!