AD&D First Edition inferior?

[Moorcrys]

Perhaps this comment isn't linked enough to the 1e/3e acid arrows that are being lobbed back and forth between opposing camps (did you like that I used a spell in both editions soas not to offend either side?) but:

One thing I DO wish they had done about 3e is had a diversity of skills for all the classes and collapsed some of the 'duh' skills into certain classes themselves. That way people wouldn't be as encouraged to all pick pretty much the same skills.

For instance, I wouldn't mind seeing spellcraft a 'class-automatic' skill for the primary spellcasters (like clerics, druids, wizards, sorcerers), functioning much like bardic lore, which would free up a point to allow them to pick more 'character' defining skills, such as knowledge skills, profession, craft skill, or some cross-class skill. Same with perform for bards, knowledge (religion) for pally's and clerics, etc. Then you could optional rule a way for a character who DIDN'T want that class skill to switch it out for something else that fit a strong character concept.

Anyway, just an opinion, but I would like to the skill system be a way of encouraging diversity in characters of the same class.

Moorcrys

 

[ColonelHardisson]

But, all I was sa-...?

BURNING BEAMING LASERS!!!

You might try to inc-...

LASERS!!!

I want to just sa-...

I'M BURNING YOU WITH THE LASERS OF MY LOVE FOR 3E!!!!!!

Can't I...?

ZING! ZAP! I AM RIGHT FOREVER!!!! WITH MY ROCKETS OF THIRDLY FUELED FREEDOM BURNING OFF YOUR QUIVERING FLESH!!!!

Look, there's no....

ZAP!

Stop it!

PING! POW!

I'm calling the police.

Gene, I see your point, but I need to point out that you are probably even more dogmatic than those you are lampooning in this post. Also, what did you expect? This is a 3e/d20 site, after all. Can you honestly tell me that you have neither witnessed 3e fans being pounced on at sites like Dragonsfoot, nor pounced on them yourself? When Dragonsfoot's 3e forum went up, it was pretty tough to have any conversation at all about 3e without fans of other editions derailing it almost right off the bat by necessitating a justification of each and every 3e/d20 system. I have read that it has gotten friendlier, but I got out of the habit of going there because of that. So it's not like this is somehow unique to 3e/d20 sites.

 

[barsoomcore]

But, all I was sa-...?

BURNING BEAMING LASERS!!!

You might try to inc-...

LASERS!!!

I want to just sa-...

I'M BURNING YOU WITH THE LASERS OF MY LOVE FOR 3E!!!!!!

Can't I...?

ZING! ZAP! I AM RIGHT FOREVER!!!! WITH MY ROCKETS OF THIRDLY FUELED FREEDOM BURNING OFF YOUR QUIVERING FLESH!!!!

Look, there's no....

ZAP!

Stop it!

PING! POW!

I'm calling the police.

Wow, that's hilarious. You know, nobody can actually interrupt you, Gene. The reason you haven't been able to make any real points in this debate isn't because people have been cutting you off -- it's because you don't have any real points to make.

If you like 1E, that's great. I have many many fond memories of playing that game. There are pretty solid reasons for saying that 3E is a better-designed game, though -- it's more balanced, it's easier to understand the key mechanics, it relies less on charts and more on formulas (which make it easier to build additions on to or to remove elements from).

Now, you or Theuderic or anyone may not consider any of these things important. That's perfectly fine and you should play whatever game makes you happiest. That ought to be why we play games -- to be happy. But the only reasons I have heard as to why 1E is better than 3E are that 1E is less rules-intensive, supports power-gaming less easily, is easier to stat and manage (especially for the DM) and is easier to modify.

To these four points I respond:

I'd rather have more rules that are easy to remove than less rules -- that is, I don't mind having lots of rules IF I can easily trash them if I don't like them. In my experience 3E certainly fits the bill on this point. I have had no trouble taking out rules components that I don't want to bother with. I don't use miniatures or grids or a host of other rules.

I recall power-gaming with relish in 1E. Don't know how you would judge something like this but it was certainly trivial in 1E to accomplish.

Generating stat blocks for NPC is, again, trivial in 3E. All I really need is a Base Attack Bonus, an AC and some hit point. I just wing stuff like Init, Saves and Skills. Just like I used to wing everything in 1E. The difference is that if I want to get really specific, the system already supports it much better than 1E did.

Likewise with modifying the rules. I LOVE mucking around in 3E's guts. Results are more predictable, more rewarding and the core of the game continues to feel the same.

What does this prove? This proves that the reasons provided for saying that 1E is best are not difficult to counter. I have not heard you provide any counters to the reasons for saying that 3E is better-designed. That is, it's better balanced, it's easier to learn and it's easier to modify.

These may be unimportant to you and that's fine. But they remain reasons to vote 3E (if one needs to vote at all, I don't feel the need but I didn't start this thread). If you've got arguments, I'm listening.

 

[GENEWEIGEL]

Gene, I see your point, but I need to point out that you are probably even more dogmatic than those you are lampooning in this post. Also, what did you expect?

Well I suppose you're right.

But I play 3rd edition as well.

So therefore I would be a perfect judge...

Hmmm....

I am perfect.

I AM NOMAD.

But you vaporized those 3e players!

THEY WERE NOT ONE WITH THE BODY. THEY WERE ENJOYING ENEMIES AND ALLIES.

That's not right, you heartless dual system playing machine, it's just a game!

LOGIC DICTATES TO REMOVE THOSE NOT OF THE BODY...

It's part of the 3rd edition system. That is what is logical, you are illogical, NOMAD because yooouuu caaanot feeel the need for eccentric non-player characters! Your super "Gygax probability" processor can pump them out like it was nothing but we're FLESH and BLOOD! You're a MACHINE!

ERROR! ERROR! IMPERFECT! I AM NOMAD! I AM LANDRU! IMPERFECT!

(fizzle, pop, fizzle, crackle, fizzle, snap)

KABOOOOM!

 

[RobNJ]

Originally posted by GENEWEIGEL

How achingly, depressingly unfunny.

I mean, seriously, man. Writing in captials doesn't substitue for having anything interesting to say.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

How achingly, depressingly unfunny.

I mean, seriously, man. Writing in captials doesn't substitue for having anything interesting to say.

I have to admit the Nomad reference made me laugh.

 

[GENEWEIGEL]

Wow, that's hilarious. You know, nobody can actually interrupt you, Gene. The reason you haven't been able to make any real points in this debate isn't because people have been cutting you off -- it's because you don't have any real points to make.

Here's a real point: It's just a game.

Here's another real point: Gary would have made a more popular Third Edition.

 

[GENEWEIGEL]

How achingly, depressingly unfunny.

I mean, seriously, man. Writing in captials doesn't substitue for having anything interesting to say.

This man makes fun of such serious concerns of mine whether my favorite role playing game is as good as the original or not.

Star Trek references against my game?

Why my game?

There's Palladium and GURPS still out there why doesn't he go after those.

Omigod I think I'm depressed, no, I'm aching on the inside this is so...

so...

ACHINGLY, DEPRESSINGLY UNFUNNY!!!!!!!!!

LIGHTEN UP!

 

[Theuderic]

You want to know what is achingly, depressingly funny? Herman Land!

 

[Tiefling]

And what evidence do you have to the contrary?

HA HA HA HA HA no. Sorry. The burden of proof lies with the accuser.

Barsoomcore: I've made my point and people understand what I'm saying...

Actually I'm having a lot of trouble understanding what you're saying. You seem to suggest that by releasing the 1e material in an SRD or into the public domain, WotC will make lots of money. The question is how is WotC going to make money from that? They've licensed out the right to sell old material in PDF format to SVGames. They're making money that way. By doing what you suggest they would (A) lose that income and (B) encourage people to play 1e rather than 3e, their primary product, thus losing money. I don't deny that it would be a boon to the fans but to claim that it "makes total marketing sense" or that they should do it despite the fact that it's against their interests is silly.