AD&D First Edition inferior?

The real problem is trying to figure your THACO in the first place
How gameron?
The Thac0 was on the chart. Just like the petr/poly/ poison, death, magic, breath, saves

Was no one able to make a simple chart
10 to -10 don't those 6 20's if you reach 20
petri/poly/ 15
spell 13
etc
it was just basic bookkeeping.
 

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diaglo said:


quote:
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Originally posted by Voneth
... Hell, any real DND player would use the REAL 1st ed that came in the box and was a white booklet, not that mislabled monstronsity of more than 100 pages!...
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finally we agree. if you read my first post on this thread or half a dozen other message boards you will see this has always been my stance. :D

Ahh, miscommunication. It's generaly assumed in conversation that 1st ed. is the hardbound book, not the boxed set. In the future, you may want to define that, or you could be seen as "baiting" people.

And I see that you forgot to include the final sentence in that quote. :)


Yeah, ultimate flexiblity! You make up almost EVERY rule as you go along.
 

I've enjoyed DMing both editions, but I find that in general players are less willing to go along with house rules on the fly when they have a book full of official rules to look through -- especially if they feel those rules (whether better, worse, simple, convoluted, or broken) are more to their advantage in-game.

Yep, I'll go along with that. The situation develops wherein I'm fine with making something up on the spot, but a player will pipe up "Hey, shouldn't we look that up?" I've tried persuading them that the details aren't important - just the game. However, you'll be hard-pressed to find players who won't gladly waste 10 minutes of game time finding and then debating the exact words that pertain to the situation their character is in. And most of the time, the ultimate outcome won't be any different. So, that is one disadvantage of the highly codified rules-set of 3e. For the ultimate escape from that, you go to OD&D, where you're forced to make a lot of stuff up on the spot.
 

Voneth said:
Ahh, miscommunication. It's generaly assumed in conversation that 1st ed. is the hardbound book, not the boxed set. In the future, you may want to define that, or you could be seen as "baiting" people.



what is so confusing about:



Originally posted by diaglo
yes.

1edADnD is inferior.

but then again so is any game when you compare it to Original D&D.

Original D&D is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.



:D
 

OK, I haven't tjhe whole thread...

... but here's my opinion in a nutshell: RPGS's are essentially simulations of genre novels {fantasy, scif-fi, horror, gasp, even Westerns, back in the day}. 1st Edition is, overall, a bad simulation.

My big beef is with the inflexible class system. Sure, it great for creating archetypes, but its lousy at creating characters that develop in response to the events in their adventuing careers. It adds a totally static element to the game mechanics...

And, if you except that D&D is at its heart a sim, then it fails the first test of any simulation: does it effectively model its source? So the Gray Mouser started his career as what, a thief, then switched to magic-user {careful not to use any of his thief skills}, and possbily did a stint as fighter? The Lankhmar book gave you stats, but the game system gave you no reasonable way for you the create this guy on your own...

But I did love 1st Ed. Still play in a nominally 2nd Ed. campaign that pure 1st Edition at heart. But 3rd Ed. really is an evolution of the system.
 

Re: Re: AD&D First Edition inferior?

ced1106 said:


Well... All I know is that as soon as EQ DMG comes out, I'm gonna get some trade credit at the FLGS! (:

As an AD&D GM, I had **so** many headaches with combat. Haven't GM'ed 3e yet, but it seems to have taken care of the most common combat situations I've encountered.

Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

That's exactly what I say, but reverse it. 3e combat is a chore compared to the simplicity of the AD&D system. We didn't use weapon speed and to hit vs AC tables. It was simplicity to drop those and reduce the combat to roll a 20, check to hit chart, roll damage. No power attacks, flanks, expertises, defensive fights, etc. Dropping those from d20 has serious reprecussions however. 3e is much more of a tactical miniature based system at heart. It would make a good man to man tactical fighting system, kind of like GUPRS advanced combat. Not bad but not to my liking.
 

That's exactly what I say, but reverse it. 3e combat is a chore compared to the simplicity of the AD&D system. We didn't use weapon speed and to hit vs AC tables. It was simplicity to drop those and reduce the combat to roll a 20, check to hit chart, roll damage. No power attacks, flanks, expertises, defensive fights, etc. Dropping those from d20 has serious reprecussions however.

No more serious repercusions than dropping 'to hit vs. AC tables' did in 1st edition. Combat will still work with D20 'lite', but you lose a certain degree of 'realism', 'balance', and cinematic quality.

Without the 'to hit vs. AC tables' and some rules (usually house rules) taking into account reach, there was essentially no reason to use anything but a sword - specifically long swords and two-handed swords - because swords were, without the 'to hit vs. AC tables', vastly superior to any other weapon in every situation. Not only that, but some weapons which should not be that effective, say darts or shurikens, were positively broken, and people could go around using blow guns vs. dragons and men in full plate.

But of all the things that ulimately drove me from AD&D to GURPS, it was the lack of cinimatic quality to AD&D combats. The AD&D combat system was so abstract that it often disolved down to (especially in the players minds) a dice rolling session. I sometimes felt I should automate combat it had such a mechanical feel. What would happen if someone chose to dodge rather than fight? The parry mechanics in UA helped, but they were clunky and not well balanced. There were so many situations that I would like to have 'happen' in combat, that didn't because the players were just rolling dice and reporting numbers instead. GURPS let a fight play out in a highly visual manner that had become lost in AD&D.

"3e is much more of a tactical miniature based system at heart."

If I have any complaint at all against D20, it is its reliance on minatures. On this one issue alone do I have a major complaint against Monte. Monte loves minatures, and he designed a system that defaults to thier use. I detest minatures. I loath them. Not because I mind buying or painting them, but because when you use minatures people stop using thier imagination in the same way - exactly the problem I had with D&D in its first incarnation. When you use minatures, the tendancy is to imagine your character in the third person instead of the first. The tendancy is to remove yourself from the virtual environment and look down, godlike, on the game and think about your character being that little metal figure 5 squares from that little door.

I hate that. I hate having to move around minatures every time I describe something. I hate people describing thier actions in game terms, 'I take a move equivalent action and step 6 squares west, then attack', rather than in something cinematic and I hate how if you are not careful in describing something cinimatically that you are more ambigious in D20 than in AD&D. If I say 'I run up to the fell beast, and hew it with my sword hoping to distract it from Bro. Jozon. "Pick on someone your own size, swine."', did I take a run action, a charge, or a normal move and attack?

Experienced D20 groups probably overcome these problems, but they still bug me.

"It would make a good man to man tactical fighting system, kind of like GUPRS advanced combat."

It's not nearly that good, but the nice part of it is that it isn't nearly that good. It lies in some sort of happy medium between high realism and quick resolution.
 

Tangent alert! Celebrim, I just have to say that you 100% expressed my views on miniatures and RPGs. One thing that helps is to really abstract the characters -- just make little tokens that have the character's (or the player's) names on them, or something like that.

I'd really like a putative 3e lite to have cinematic combat. Or better yet, someone who does a 3e variant with cinematic rather than wargamer combat. Does such a thing exist already?
 


Eh. I find miniatures to be pretty much optional. There is nothing in the combat system you couldn't do by making DM judgement calls. Yes, Virginia, that includes AoO and flanking.

When we play, we usually only bother if:
- there is a complex combat situation, or
- there is a "chaotic everywhere" player in the group who likes to do everything and be everywhere

However, I find that miniatures are a nice artistic expression for the players, and that using miniatures and a map helps create a common image in the players' minds of the situation at hand.
 

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