AD&D First Edition inferior?

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

I doubt it. If this were true, one would expect Lejendary Adventures to be selling better than it has thus far. While it has not been a commercial failure by all accounts, it does not appear to be selling any better than a dozen other game systems either.

I don't think this is a fair measure--not with the system being separate from the Dungeons & Dragons name.

In fact, if such a thing were possible, it would have be interesting to see how well 3e would have done absent the brand recognition.

Ah well, just a bit of idle speculation...

 

[Dinkeldog]

I don't think this is a fair measure--not with the system being separate from the Dungeons & Dragons name.

In fact, if such a thing were possible, it would have be interesting to see how well 3e would have done absent the brand recognition.

Ah well, just a bit of idle speculation...

With all due respect to Col_Pladoh: I think his name alone carries a lot of recognition, probably close to that associated with D&D among gamers. However, I think he would have wilfully reverted a lot of the 2nd edition stuff back out. We probably wouldn't have gotten free multi-classing and the elimination of race-class restrictions.

In addition, you have the baggage of being written by the good Colonel. As many people loathe him and his style as love him, it seems. The number of people that stopped playing AD&D when other options appeared is legion. (I wasn't one of them, btw, just an objective observation.)

Probably the most important name attached to D&D is Jonathon Tweet's. He's got an incredible reputation among the gaming friends I've had that had no interest in AD&D's restrictive gaming paradigm.

 

[dcas]

Yes, and if just 10% of the hypothetical 15,000 1e afficionadoes fall into the category of "hardcore fans with internet access" then there would be 1,500 people who are registered for Dragonsfoot.org and the Kenzer site in my example. I don't have their total membership, but my guess is that it is far lower then 1,500 members.

It's actually in excess of 1,700 (1,551 on the Kenzer site and 165 on Dragonsfoot). It should be noted, of course, that many of the users of the Kenzer fora are there because of Kingdoms of Kalamar and not necessarily HackMaster. Even Dragonsfoot has a 3e section as well as an "Edition Wars" section.

I don't think that comparing sales of the HackMaster PHB to the 3e PHB will necessarily be helpful in determining the relative sizes of the 1e/3e markets. I know a number of 1e/2e aficionados who view HackMaster as a great big joke (I'm not among them) and who want nothing to do with it. And it's certainly not true that everyone who makes an investment in HackMaster does so out of nostalgia. Heck, if I wanted nostalgia, I still have all of my 1e/2e materials -- I could just bust them out and run with them!

 

[Storm Raven]

I don't think this is a fair measure--not with the system being separate from the Dungeons & Dragons name.

You misundertand me I think. I did not mean that Lejendary Adventures would have to outsell 3e in order for their evidence that a Gygax designed new version of D&D would outsell the current version. What I said was that one would look for Gygax's current game to be doing very well by industry standards in order to have good evidence.

What I am saying is this: the general evidence is that Lejendary Adventures sells okay, but not necessarily great. I'd be surprised if it was in the top 5 of non-D&D, non-White Wolf RPG lines sold today. Given that he does not appear to be outperforming his peers who have similarly limited brand recognition (and he has his own name recognition to help him out), I'm inclined to think that the evidence that he could produce a more popular version of 3e D&D is rather weak.

In fact, if such a thing were possible, it would have be interesting to see how well 3e would have done absent the brand recognition.

Impossible to tell. We can only draw conclusions from the evidence available, and the evidence available doesn't include anything that would be real helpful on this score.

 

[GENEWEIGEL]

I'll think I'll just crawl under a rock now and die!



Seriously, this is interesting. It isn't an issue of 1st edition vs 3rd edition or Greyhawk vs Living Greyhawk or King Kong vs Godzilla.

The truth of the matter is there really is no issue at all.

We're all a bunch of jerks who spend too much time dwelling on how the TSR corporation lost focus years ago and though unqualified restated anyway that "I publish D&D therefore I am D&D" and the aftermath created all these bogus grudge matches.

First edition will live forever simply because it has a style that can't be replicated. All the elements were there at that time and we'll never see it again.

The Third Edition went the route of one DM's custom ruled optioned out campaign but it did show masses and masses of new players how that could be achieved right away.

So antiquarians were reviled of the capability of a first time player to manipulate the material so much as to not even come close to the medieval elements of the game.

How does one get around this?

1. 
   Use the 3e books for options is one.
   
   Second 3e characters can be invaders from another plane. (this could be handled with my chart I mentioned earlier.)
   
   Thirdly 3e monsters, treasure other facets are easier to translate into 1e than vise-versa.
   
   Fourth, come to the understanding that most 3e super fans aren't as scholarly and perhaps never wanted to be. And there's nothing wrong with "just playing a game".
   
   [/list=1]
   
   Besides we all know Lejendary Adventures is superior to all D&D anyway!
   
   Just kidding, Gary!
   
   

 

[Storm Raven]

It's actually in excess of 1,700 (1,551 on the Kenzer site and 165 on Dragonsfoot). It should be noted, of course, that many of the users of the Kenzer fora are there because of Kingdoms of Kalamar and not necessarily HackMaster. Even Dragonsfoot has a 3e section as well as an "Edition Wars" section.

So, basically the only concrete evidence we have is that there are 165 Dragonsfoot users and some indeterminate number of Kenzer guys (under 1,551, probably less than half that I'm guessing) who can be called 1e afficionados. That's a reall small potential market, even if you assume that there are nine 1e fans who would buy stuff for every registered user on those sites.

 

[Storm Raven]

Fourth, come to the understanding that most 3e super fans aren't as scholarly and perhaps never wanted to be.

I'd have to say this is one of the silliest statements I have seen on the ENBoards in a long time.

 

[GENEWEIGEL]

I implied scholarly towards the game.

Sorry.

 

[Dinkeldog]

*snip*
The Third Edition went the route of one DM's custom ruled optioned out campaign but it did show masses and masses of new players how that could be achieved right away.
*snip*

Well, I know Piratecat was a playtester, so it must be his custom ruled optioned out campaign. I could do (and have done) worse.

 

[Voadam]

Here are the rules mechanics that I feel are inferior in 1e.

Wierd saving throw types vs. dex, con, wis, saves.

AC going down and not quite even attack chart vs easy to compute attack modifiers versus AC going up.

Thief skills using their own mechanic and no choice in skill types vs. integrated skills, plenty of choices, but still making rogues the skill men.

Awkward multiclassing and dual classing versus 3e multiclassing mechanic. I like the balance and player choices offered in 3e multiclassing.

Demihuman level limits and humans only benefitting from unlimited class advancement potential versus 3e no default level limits and humans have mechanical benefits.

One minute combat rounds versus six seconds for picturing what goes on in the combat and describing it as it happens.

Irregular advancement charts (both between classes and between levels) vs unified advancement chart for all classes and levels.

Some core classes having max levels and others are infinite versus all core classes being infinite.

stat bonuses irregularly granted and only at high ends of possible range versus smooth bonuses.

First level magic users being one shot spell casters versus generally at least two 1st level shots.

monsters only have int stat done out versus full stats taken into consideration for all monsters.

That's it for now.