AD&D First Edition inferior?

[Geoffrey]

Anyone who's seen me post on the subject knows I'm ceratinly no defender of high prices for D&D books, but...

When was the last time you priced board games? Something as ubiquitous and easy to learn as Monopoly will run you at least $30. I've seen plenty of board games go for a lot more than that. And don't even think about minis games.

Playing a sport can get expensive also - ever golf? Fish?

D&D isn't that expensive when you think about it. Besides, plenty of other RPGs are as, if not more, expensive.

If it's too expensive for you, then play the edition you already have and like. As I've said before, the old books weren't printed with time-release invisible ink - at least, my copies weren't struck blank when 3e came out.

Colonel, I recently bought Stratego Legends for $25.00, which is the price tag that should be on D&D ($20 book and $5 dice).

To me, the expense of 3E is intertwined with the complexity of the game. Why the devil should the CORE RULE consist of 800 or so pages? That's just asinine. I can think of all kinds of people who would consider buying D&D and giving it a try if it was inexpensive and easy to learn. The price tag and page count turns many potential buyers away. That's something I wish WotC would realize.

For me, I would like to be able to "get with the program" and play 3E. I want to speak the same "RPG language" as the majority of current gamers. A 3E Lite would certainly have a serious chance to get my money and my time. Why the hell not a Lite version? Moldvay did it 21 years ago. Surely WotC could figure out how to strip down their core rules into a 128-page game that still covers levels up to 20.

P. S. If any anger comes through this post, it's not directed at you, Colonel. It's directed at WotC.

 

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

...I want to speak the same "RPG language" as the majority of current gamers...

I've expressed this sentiment more than once as well.

Leaving aside topics such as this for the moment, I generally try to add something constructive to the discussion here--but I find that my passing familiarity with 3e is becoming less adequate for such efforts as the system continues to grow.

It's disheartening to find myself more and more on the periphery of a hobby that has had such a dominant position in my life for the last 25 years or so--especially now, when it is so easy to participate in a worldwide community (something that wasn't possible during all but the last few years of my D&D experience).

I want to enjoy 3e--I just can't...

 

[Rhialto]

Gene, just allow me to say--I have no idea what you're on, but I'm strongly tempted to give it a try. I mean, what else can I say to statements like this--

I did not mean scholarly as a "dis" but instead suggesting that the current trend has been to take books as official to be official without question.

See what I mean? It looks like a sentence but try to figure out the thought it conveys, and you're left with a strong urge to smash your head against the wall...

Where as someone like myself and other "1e fans" ask what has changed in the rules, the stories or the style that makes everything seem so strange in the Dungeons and Dragon phenomena's current incarnation.

Questions like what happened to the wierd and esoteric feel the game once had and such.[/B]

You see, this is the classic 1e fan complaint. 3e is missing some vague, undefined thing that was essential to 1e's success. Ask them just what it was, and they'll start hemming and hawing, but they'll never deny it exists.

That's all I meant by scholarly. An appreciation of the game's history rather than automatically taking for granted what the latest authors of the game think it is.[/B]

Okay, Gene, not only does this have one of those "wha-?" feelings like your earlier sentence, but you also display the forceful elitism so many 1e fans show. Somehow, 3e fans are a bunch of fools being tricked by the present game makers...

I respect Gary Gygax completely for giving us this game and his efforts in its construction.

It's so thoughtful that it eclipses other game types. I'm sure a lot of us feel this way.

A rejection of respect for all the years of work that went into AD&D is a rejection of the thoughtfulness that went into the game.

Therefore unscholarly in method towards what the game is.

A game of thought.

In plain in English, why have a superficial interest in a thing that's going to take up a whole chunk of your time anyway?



Therefore the comment 3e superfans are unscholarly. [/B]

You know, I'm just going to give up trying to figure out exactly what it is you mean, because piercing the meaning of your sentences say is like trying to look through a brick wall--they're that opaque. I think what you're saying boils down to that because 1e came first, all other versions should be considered lower than it. Which is basically like saying that an older computer operating system is automatically superior to a newer one, but hey, we all have our opinions...

 

[tsadkiel]

Surely WotC could figure out how to strip down their core rules into a 128-page game that still covers levels up to 20.

I think a 128 page stripped down (sorta) D&D book for $20.00 would be great. Keep skills and feats, but with just the four basic classes (maybe using sorcerer instead of wizard), the four basic races (drop the half-breeds and gnomes), a small selection of classic monsters covering CR 1-20, and a careful selection of spells and magic items, coupled with a pared-down combat system (no grids) . . . heck, if I had a d20 company I'd do it myself. (Though no one would buy it, since I couldn't use the D&D brand name or even the d20 trademark, so I'd quickly go out of business.)

 

[Voneth]

That's worth $25.00 (game book plus dice).

That's funny, it only cost me $20 to RUN, not play 3ed. for almost a year.

I got the PHB after I was convinced the game had the flexibility to run the games I wanted to run, not the games that WotC/TSR wanted to run.

With only the PHB, I converted and ran a Castle Falkenstein game and even created a spell point/ skills and feats magic system. Our opponets were intellgent races, not cliche fantasy monsters, and we never used minitures. I had a waiting line for my game.

My next book was the 1st ed. Star Wars book becuause I wanted it, not needed it. It was $35 of alien/monsters, a working XP system that is simpler than even 1ed's XP and I got another "magic"/Force system. Damn good buy!

What was even better was seeing how WotC had created new classes and races, that really let me cut loose in my games.

Then I bought d20 Deadlands ($25), not becuase I thought I needed the rules (though the Mad Scientist class is a great improvement over Alchemy and Craft if you prefer a loose gadget system) But because I have always wanted to play Deadlands and no one else I played with wanted to touch non DND stuff. My CF steam punk game got darker and I still had a waiting line.

At this point, I still didn't have the MM or the DMG. It is almost a year later and I still under $100 in "DND" stuff.

Converted over the old WEG Darkstryder campaign for Star Wars, ran that, and I still didn't use minitures.

Then I finaly got a job where I don't live paycheck to paycheck, and my purchases exploded, because I wanted the items, not because I needed them to play. I got OA ($35), Spycraft ($35), Series Archer ($35), and some misclanous but very cool mini games in Polyhedron and Dragon magazine ($20?).

This next wave of purchases was over $125, but I got rules and bits I wanted, nothing I needed. I could have bought 5 other RPG, right? I did.

I got RPG rules for Far East, Superspy, low-key scifi, space fantasy, pulp, urban fantasy and more steampunk. Opps! Looks like I got seven games there. And all of them are part of one intergrated system where I can switch out rules even if the genre is different, at $17 each.

And then I look at my Revised Dark Sun boxed set and see how many rules it took to make AD&D work with those races, and I feel gyped!

About 3 months ago, I learned the price of the three core books was going up. I finaly got the MM and the DMG, after I found a store that had stocked up on the $20 books. And then I actualy started to read them (beyond browsing other people copies when I played their games.) I discovered that while the MM is nice, the DMG (for me personaly) wasn't worth the money since I only need like two or three chapters (For guidelines -- not rules-- on PC monster races , the Leadership feat [humph! they could have put that in that in the PHB], and more suggestions on d20 in other genres). All that dugeon stuff and treasure charts -- wasted space for my particular style since I play fast and loose.

And recently I broke down and got Farscape becuse I love the show and I like the optional rules that AEG comes up with, in fact if you like 1st ed, then Farscape is space opera in your style.

So while I can't help you that WotC didn't feel confident enough to reoder another million copies so they could continue to sell the game at $20, I can inform you that if you truely hold to that whole "1st ed was about loose rules" then the PHB is more than adequate for you needs, especialy if you focus a role-playing game that does more than just throw monsters at PC. If insist that you must run the standard fantasy game, then you will need the MM.

Still under $100 I am afraid.

 

[GENEWEIGEL]

Hem and Haw?

3e has easier to hit gameplay.

1e BAB numbers are lower for all.

HD and Armor haven't changed with the exception of leather.

This proves 3e has easier to hit gameplay.

No hem and haw there.

Clear and defined difference.

 

[Voneth]

I think a 128 page stripped down (sorta) D&D book for $20.00 would be great. Keep skills and feats, but with just the four basic classes (maybe using sorcerer instead of wizard), the four basic races (drop the half-breeds and gnomes), a small selection of classic monsters covering CR 1-20, and a careful selection of spells and magic items, coupled with a pared-down combat system (no grids)

First off

1.) At a 128 pages for $20, I’d ask you not to expect color, or a hard cover. In fact the cover would probably be a very flimsy soft cover, which sounds good to me. J I am not a part of this whole “hardcover” fad. Just look at what Palladium is offering for $15, you'll get an idea of the product.

Sorry, after inflation, those $12 and $17 1ed. books will be closer to $17 and $22. I sense more of nostalgia and a "price freeze" from a denial of inflation ("I remember when comic books and candy cost a damn nickle! Now they are a whole damn $3 and not worth the paper they are printed on!) than any logic to those "it was cheaper!" arguments.

. . . heck, if I had a d20 company I'd do it myself. (Though no one would buy it, since I couldn't use the D&D brand name or even the d20 trademark, so I'd quickly go out of business.)

2.) In that vein, I suggest you save your nickels for another month and the plop down $33 bucks for an OGL, 192 glossy, full-color pages, hardbound d20 book coming out this month.

It will offer dozens of regular feats and enhanced feats, 12 classes, an introductory adventure and complete rules for supernatural item, weapons, transports, fortresses, new spells, and sidekicks. It should also be even more flexible than regular DND and while it doesn’t include critters to fight, it does offer humanoid opponents and its flexibility will let you design your own monsters fairly easily. (And the author is kicking around the idea of a pdf document that offers some critters online).

And to top it off there are optional rules for the amount of power you want in your games as well as an optional damage tracking system.

Now here is to hoping it has the right mix of consistent rules vs. loose rules.

 

[Victim]

In 1e you could often get another +2 or more by using a weapon with good armor penetration bonuses like a 2 handed sword or flail. That makes up for a bit the difference. Also, ACs are no longer capped at -12 or -10, so at higher levels and with more focus on defense, ACs can get high enough to cause trouble for high level people.

However, I don't see what you're refering to when you talk about increased hit probabilities. Is that 10% increase a fundamental change? And the monsters hit much more now, and everyone generally has some more HP. It is going to work pretty much the same in most cases.

You can respect Mr. Gygax for inventing the AD&D without playing it. Just because someone invents something, doesn't mean it can't be improved, and it can be improved without degrading the creator. I doubt anyone wants to use Wright Flyers for mass air travel, but that doesn't mean that the airplane isn't an amazing a invention and that the Wright brothers weren't pretty dang smart for making it. But once something becomes public after someone creates it, anyone can work on improving it. You say: "A rejection of respect for all the years of work that went into AD&D is a rejection of the thoughtfulness that went into the game." However, isn't a rejection of 3e based mostly on nostalgia a rejection of the thoughtfulness and years of work that went into it as well.

EDIT:

Oh yeah, you can effectively get the 3e rules free via the OGL and SRD. Now that's cheap.

 

[Geoffrey]

At a 128 pages for $20, I’d ask you not to expect color, or a hard cover. In fact the cover would probably be a very flimsy soft cover, which sounds good to me. J I am not a part of this whole “hardcover” fad. Just look at what Palladium is offering for $15, you'll get an idea of the product.

Many of Sword & Sorcery's hardbound books (Ghelspad, the two Creature Collections, Relics & Rituals) are $24.95. They also average 224 pages. I have no doubt that 3E Lite, as a WotC product that says "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover and has 96 fewer pages than the S&S books listed above, could easily manage a $20 price tag. I agree about not expecting color.

 

[Grazzt]

HD and Armor haven't changed with the exception of leather.

This proves 3e has easier to hit gameplay.

No hem and haw there.

Clear and defined difference.

First- how has leather changed? In 1e it was AC 8. In 3e it grants a +2 armor bonus. Same thing.

It may be easier to hit in 3e than it was in 1e, but monsters have (or can have) more hp now since they have ability scores (Con in this case). Also, PCs no longer stop acquiring HD as they did in 1e (when they just got "+2 hp per level after 9th" or whatever). Now, PCs get a full HD for every level obtained.

So- whilst it may be easier to hit, the addition of more hp seems to balance this all out in the end.