AD&D is not "rules light"

[Ariosto]

You memorized ALL the spells in AD&D so well you could DM without a PHB!?!

You've memorized ALL the powers, feats, skills, actions, conditions and so on in 4E so well you could DM without a PHB!?!

I merely rejected the claim for 4E; I did not make it for AD&D. However, I have in fact run OD&D without the books on hand (due to accident, not by plan).

 

[Ariosto]

You can also run a fairly modern-era PC using Windows 95, as long as you're not a fan USB, DVD drives, 3D accelerated graphics, 512+ RAM, 10+ Gig HDs, Any software made past 2000, etc...

That's a false analogy, because there is no such objectively utilitarian equivalent here to that hardware -- and choosing not to use some features of AD&D is not at all the same as having available only the features of Windows 95.

 

[AllisterH]

You've memorized ALL the powers, feats, skills, actions, conditions and so on in 4E so well you could DM without a PHB!?!

I merely rejected the claim for 4E; I did not make it for AD&D. However, I have in fact run OD&D without the books on hand (due to accident, not by plan).

Powers actually is pretty simple. Unlike a pre 4e MU, there's no chance of knowing way more spells than you can possibly remember.

A 10th level 4e cleric knows about half the number of prayers that his pre 4e version knew (of course, depending on edition, I could be wrong as even in 2e, the cleric that started in '89 probably knew less spells than the cleric started in the post Handbook/PO:Sp&M/FR's Faith & Avatars era).

Furthermore, the monster manual doesn't refer to any spells in the PHB thus one less worry.

Keep in mind, I did originally state that a DM only needed the DM screen which for 4e contains everything you just mentioned.

Truly, in 4e, you need the DMG and the rest of the books PRE-adventure night, but once the actual adventure night starts, DM screen only.

 

[Remathilis]

You've memorized ALL the powers, feats, skills, actions, conditions and so on in 4E so well you could DM without a PHB!?!

I merely rejected the claim for 4E; I did not make it for AD&D. However, I have in fact run OD&D without the books on hand (due to accident, not by plan).

I can DM a 4e using only a module for monster stats and PCs printed up with the character builder (with appropriate power/item cards) and no books in sight.

So I reject the claim for 4e.

 

[Ariosto]

Oh Noes! My thief learned to read/write and can juggle. Tomorrow, he'll be a half-dragon/displacer beast warblade/ninja/weretiger wtih +6 holy axiomatic flaming nunchucku!

Apples and oranges. I don't need a pile of stinking rules (and the pile of stinking rules lawyers that comes with it) to do any of that. Been there, done that -- with the ORIGINAL fantasy role playing game!

 

[Ariosto]

Keep in mind, I did originally state that a DM only needed the DM screen which for 4e contains everything you just mentioned.

I haven't seen it, but if your DM screen is even 10% as many pages as the PHB -- as "everything I mentioned" (copying Remathilis) includes all the powers -- then I don't see the point. The combat chapter alone is 30 pages.

Again, there is nothing system-specific about having things in a non-book format. Neither does such a transcription change rules into non-rules. So, the claim that a DM's screen, character sheets, spell cards, and so on make 4E rules-lighter than AD&D would be false (in terms of number and frequency of rules used) even if it were in fact a difference from AD&D -- which it is not.

 

[Remathilis]

Apples and oranges. I don't need a pile of stinking rules (and the pile of stinking rules lawyers that comes with it) to do any of that. Been there, done that -- with the ORIGINAL fantasy role playing game!

Yeah, and I could drive from Michigan to Florida in a Model T. Doesn't mean I won't miss the air-conditioning...

 

[billd91]

Here's an interesting tact. I think 4e is even more rules light than even BD&D in that AT the table, the players don't need to crack open the PHB and a DM only needs the DMGscreen.

This not only applies to experienced players BUT also to relatively new players as most of the rules for the game is right on your sheet/cardDMscreen

That doesn't mean the game's rules-light. I can play Champions at a game table without ever cracking the book open if my character sheet is properly detailed and Champions is, in no way, rules light. I've seen people do it with Advanced Squad Leader as well save for using the standard resolution tables.

The ability to master the rules plus having detailed references (which are really just distilled rules) doesn't make a game rules light. It just means you've mastered them to the point that you don't need to reference them frequently.

 

[Ariosto]

Yeah, and I could drive from Michigan to Florida in a Model T. Doesn't mean I won't miss the air-conditioning...

What has that to do with relative rules lightness? You happen to LIKE more rules, therefore they are not more rules?

Following on billd91's observations, I happen to like Champions and ASL -- but I would never call them "rules lighter" than AD&D.

Relative to Metamorphosis Alpha (32 pp.), the original D&D set (equivalent to about 55 pp.), the original Traveller set (equivalent to about 72 pp.), Boot Hill, Tunnels & Trolls, Villains and Vigilantes, RuneQuest -- or just about any other widely popular RPG of the time (as opposed, for instance, to FGU's more complex and lesser played offerings) -- AD&D was a "heavyweight". At the very least, 4E is in the same league. To my eye, it is actually an exemplar of the even greater weightiness that has become par for the course with Wizards, White Wolf and other publishers today.

 

[Piratecat]

Ariosto, Remathilis, et al - stop bickering. Last warning. You're welcome to discuss the issue, but please stop the sarcasm and snark. It's making the conversation worse instead of better.