AD&D/O.S.R.I.C: Creating XP Progression for Homebrewed Classes

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

"Traveling across planes weakens magic items..."

Do either of you remember where this is discussed in the rules? I'd like to have a look.

Thank you.

 

[Celebrim]

"Traveling across planes weakens magic items..."

Do either of you remember where this is discussed in the rules? I'd like to have a look.

Thank you.

The earliest I know of it in a published work is Q1: Queen of the Demonweb Pits. Whether it showed up in the formal rules, I don't know, but I didn't own the 1e Manual of the Planes.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

I have the 1E Manual of the Planes, but it's been a long time since I read through it (decades?). Never owned Q1. But, in the event of planar travel, I'll try and remember to check out the possible ill effects on magic items.

 

[WheresMyD20]

I'm wondering now how much Mines of Bloodstone influenced your DMs choices and rules. For example, in the H series, many of the fiend lords were boosted to 400hp when on their own plane to give them some chance of survival. Even backed up by say 12 pit fiends, I'm having a hard time imagining an unbuffed Geryon daunting a 20th+ level party, as he's hardly one of the more fearsome fiend lords. Then again, maybe by 'overwhelmed' you mean, "One of Geryon's Legions arrived.", in which case did combat sometimes get sloggy and how did you deal with it? Twelve beholders is after all a lot of ray attacks per round.

I don't recall exactly how much backup Geryon had, but 12 pit fiends would probably be in the ballpark. It was a pretty nasty fight. Assuming each pit fiend used its hold person spell-like ability right away, that would mean each party member would have to make six saving throws vs. spell in one round to avoid being paralyzed. (3 targets per spell x 12 pit fiends / 6 party members) Even if you generously assume that all party members only fail a save on a natural 1 (which wasn't the case), odds are that two party members would be knocked out of the fight in round one.

IIRC, devils are immune to fire and cold and take half damage from lightning. Add in magic resistance and a highly likely saving throw and most of the raw damage spells are a lot weaker than usual against them. Often times, the best way to damage them is for a buffed up fighter to beat on them with weapons.

I remember our DM used to take the "may use once per round" spell-like abilities literally. As in, the monster could use one of those abilities per round and still do something else, like attack or cast a spell. I don't think that's the way it was intended to be played, but that's the way he ran it, and it made demons and devil more powerful by effectively doubling their actions per round.

The rule about magic items losing effectiveness through planar travel is found in several places in the Manual of the Planes. Page 81 has the rules for the outer planes. The biggest effect is that all +X items lose one "plus" per planar boundary crossed from its home plane. That means a +3 sword from the Prime Plane would only be a +1 sword in the Abyss (Prime -> Astral -> Abyss).

There are also rules in the Manual of the Planes for how planar travel affects class abilities. Clerics in particular get hit hard if they travel to outer planes far removed from their deity's home plane. They can only re-memorize 1st and 2nd level spells and their turn undead ability gets reduced. Conversely, evil clerics and creatures with turning ability have a pretty good shot of turning paladins in the lower planes.

In general, our party felt almost indestructible on the Prime Plane, but quite vulnerable in the Outer Planes.

On the topic of dual-classes, one of the best is Cleric 9/Magic-User X. A 9th level cleric only requires 225k xp, which is only six-tenths of a magic-user level past name level (375k). For that six-tenths of a level, the magic-user gets d8 hit dice for 9 of his 11 HD, excellent turn undead chances (second best column on the table), 4/4/3/2/1 cleric spellcasting (including healing magic, a magic-user blind spot), and the ability to use clerical scrolls and magic items. Also, his fighting ability and weapon choices are somewhat improved, which is nice. Saving throws also benefit a bit in the short run. The character can also qualify for clerical followers and a stronghold. Since clerics have a much better survival rate at low levels, I think it's one of the best ways to develop a magic-user while only slightly impacting his magic-user level in the long run.

Druid 12/Magic-User X is also worth looking at. It only costs 300k xp, which is still less than one magic-user level past name level. It grants access to every druid spell up to and including 7th level, and a total of 24 druid spells per day. The character also gets druid shape-shifting, 12d8 hit dice, and better combat abilities. The only real drawback is the long slog up to magic-user 13: 1,125,000 xp, which is a lot more than the 250k needed for magic-user 10 for the Cleric 9/Magic-User X option. Once the slog is done, though, you're less than one magic-user level behind a single-class magic-user.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

The biggest limiter on an AD&D magic-user is spell interruption. Ignore that and they're going to dominate. They were very, very vulnerable to being interrupted and losing spells, and required solid team play to cast to good effect.

 

[pemerton]

"Traveling across planes weakens magic items..."

Do either of you remember where this is discussed in the rules?

MotP has already been mentioned.

To the best of my knowledge, the first time it is mentioned is in an article by Gygax in Dragon #8, though rather than a reduction in "plusses" based on planar distance, it is all or nothing:

Basic bonus weapons extend generally into planes which are once, twice, etc. removed from the Prime Material Plane of play. Those with special bonuses then have a more intense nature in the plane in which the creature they function specially against has its extra existence. And this also explains weaponry which does extra damage to creatures which can be hit by non-magical weapons. Let us assume that these weapons have their special existence on the plane in which the particular creature has its personal existence. . . .

Finally, what of magic swords of special nature or special purpose which are far removed from the Prime Material Plane? I suggest that these weapons can be removed no further than the number of planes from the Prime Material which equals their best bonus stated as a “to hit”, i.e. a + 2 can be removed by two planes and still retain its magical properties. Certain swords will have special treatment — the sword of sharpness and the vorpal blade most notably. On the other hand, a sword of life draining ability gains no such consideration, for it operates primarily on the Negative Material Plane. In any event, swords removed beyond the plane limit given will lose all of their magic, becoming nothing more than normal weapons. This same “law” can apply equally to those weapons, swords or otherwise, which have a simple “to hit” bonus.​

High level characters rarely fail saves, and their items also rarely fail saves even when they do.

My understanding is that, in 1st ed AD&D, item saves must be rolled whether or not the character fails his/her save.

The DMG doesn't say either way, I don't think, but there is this from the PHB, p 105:

Note that magic items and even normal items and weapons must be saved for due to such attacks, falls or blows. Consider the fate of a cloak when exposed to dragon fire, a suit of magic armor struck by a lightning bolt, or a magic hammer flying through a cone of cold prior to striking its target.​

 

[WheresMyD20]

My understanding is that, in 1st ed AD&D, item saves must be rolled whether or not the character fails his/her save.

The DMG doesn't say either way, I don't think, but there is this from the PHB, p 105:

Note that magic items and even normal items and weapons must be saved for due to such attacks, falls or blows. Consider the fate of a cloak when exposed to dragon fire, a suit of magic armor struck by a lightning bolt, or a magic hammer flying through a cone of cold prior to striking its target.
​

All of those examples are of magic items that are not currently being worn or held by characters. It's a pretty gray area subject to DM interpretation, but I believe the intent is that items being held or worn usually do not have to make item saving throws under normal circumstances. Item saving throws are normally used for items not being held or worn that are subjected to circumstances where they could potentially be destroyed.

Also, "not being held or worn by characters" can be extended to items on the corpse of a character killed by a fireball, lightning bolt, dragon breath, etc. An item save can be required by the DM to see if any equipment survived when the character did not.

Again, this is a pretty fuzzy area open to DM interpretation, but I believe this is the intent of the rule and it's the most common way I've seen it applied.

 

[pemerton]

All of those examples are of magic items that are not currently being worn or held by characters. It's a pretty gray area subject to DM interpretation, but I believe the intent is that items being held or worn usually do not have to make item saving throws under normal circumstances. Item saving throws are normally used for items not being held or worn that are subjected to circumstances where they could potentially be destroyed.

Also, "not being held or worn by characters" can be extended to items on the corpse of a character killed by a fireball, lightning bolt, dragon breath, etc. An item save can be required by the DM to see if any equipment survived when the character did not.

Again, this is a pretty fuzzy area open to DM interpretation, but I believe this is the intent of the rule and it's the most common way I've seen it applied.

One of the circumstances that triggers an item saving throw is falling. But in AD&D there is no saving throw on a fall. I think if the GM adjudicates that the item has been exposed to the attack/effect then a save is required, and that whether or not the PC succeeds at a save is not determinative of this.

 

[dagger]

We normally only do it on a roll of a 1. Then you start rolling for items, and depending on the attack, even metal magic swords +5 have it rough.

Thats why the wizards put the spell book in a leather bag, that is inside the backpack, that is further inside a bag of holding. LOL That way 3 saves before even the book would have to save if it came to that.

Going to be honest, I have not read the rules in a while on the process, but it has come up in the past I would say maybe 10 to 20 times?

 

[Gray Lensman]

Some very good points (on both sides) have been brought up here, but remember, it's your game.

"You are the master architect. If a chart gives you a result that you don't like, throw the book out the window and make your own choices!" World Builders Guidebook, 1996, TSR Inc
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - Gary Gygax Second hand Attribution here