AD&D: There and Back Again - a Role-Player's Tale

[lumin]

And here's been the point of a lot of other people:

The rules can only explicitly cover a subset of things that can occur in the course of a D&D campaign. Your players can and will come up with more. By providing more rules structure to adjudicate broad situations, the rules in 3e are more defined, less inconsistent, and less free-wheeling than 1e which didn't have the broader structure.

But 3E doesn't really have "more rules" does it? I mean, practically everything possible revolves around a single rule: D20 vs DC. This is a rule created, precisely to provide more "free-wheeled" adventures.

In 1E, there was a specific rule for each situation that Gygax put in the book, but not for every situation outside of the rulebook that could be come up by players. The DM could choose to make things up OUTSIDE THE RULE SYSTEM or say "no".

That's why I say that 1E's rules were more strict. They told you what you could and could not do. In 3E, the D20 was designed for flexibility for "broad situations" (your words).

 

[lumin]

I really think that we're all trying to say the same thing in a different way.

In your opinion, you believe that the Dungeon Master making things up is part of the rule system. In my opinion, I believe that whenever the Dungeon Master is making things up, he is breaking the rules for the sake of the game.

So when the DM has to make things up LESS often in 3E, (because of the D20 mechanic) you believe that it is less free-wheeled.

What I am saying is that because the D20 mechanic is a part of the rule system, you are indeed free-wheeling it more often - but you are doing it because the RULES have called for it.

 

[IronWolf]

In your opinion, you believe that the Dungeon Master making things up is part of the rule system. In my opinion, I believe that whenever the Dungeon Master is making things up, he is breaking the rules for the sake of the game.
.

Even though the DMG says the DM should come up with a way to handle it? As quoted by pawsplay many pages ago....

 

[billd91]

I really think that we're all trying to say the same thing in a different way.

In your opinion, you believe that the Dungeon Master making things up is part of the rule system. In my opinion, I believe that whenever the Dungeon Master is making things up, he is breaking the rules for the sake of the game.

I think this may be a product of when you really started digging into RPGs compared to some of us comparative old-timers. I wouldn't be at all surprised if most of the people arguing against your interpretation of the difference in editions believe, as I do, that the DM making things up is part of the rule system - probably the most important single part. I feel that way not just about D&D but all refereed RPGs. It's simply a necessary element of the game.

But having really started with an edition with a more encompassing general rule, your perspective seems to be that a DM who makes things up is breaking the rules.

 

[Ariosto]

why all the stuff about attaching limbs for trolls when you cannot cut off a limb in combat?

The sword of sharpness (DMG p. 166) says otherwise, but let us set it aside.

Trolls do not stop regenerating when they are hors de combat, and one can certainly cut up unresisting objects -- except in lumin's world, in which the absence of a special rule presumably prohibits not only carving joints but chopping logs. ("Better stick to breaking down dungeon doors, foolish ax wielder!")

 

[Ariosto]

The rules are telling me that only a thief can pick a lock or hide in shadows.

The rules tell me (provisionally) the same thing, and this is not contrary to reason. I say "provisionally", because (just for instance) gauntlets of dexterity can make up for want of the special training entailed.

This understanding that picking locks is a special ability is assumed as part of the canon of common education brought to the game, and implicit in calling it out as a function of the thief class. The ability to vanish literally in shadows is even more extraordinary, albeit less fantastic than the powers of Zelazny's Shadowjack.

Climbing nearly sheer surfaces unaided is a much more notable undertaking than climbing a flight of stairs, a ladder or -- what you seem unable to grasp -- a rope. Climbing a rope was part of the president's physical fitness standards for American youth; emulating Spider-man was not!

On the other hand, "the rules tell you" that only a thief can hear a noise -- which is contrary both to common sense and to the letter of the rules. The distinction of thieves is that they eventually get better at it.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I really think that we're all trying to say the same thing in a different way.

No. I'm pretty sure we are not.

In your opinion, you believe that the Dungeon Master making things up is part of the rule system. In my opinion, I believe that whenever the Dungeon Master is making things up, he is breaking the rules for the sake of the game.

Well then my opinion is backed up by the rulebook whereas yours is not.

So when the DM has to make things up LESS often in 3E, (because of the D20 mechanic) you believe that it is less free-wheeled.

Freewheeling. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Freewheeling

: free and loose in form or manner: as

a : heedless of social norms or niceties <the raider style of his freewheeling father — Garry Wills>

b : not repressed or restrained <freewheeling promiscuity> <a freewheeling competitive spirit>

c : not bound by formal rules, procedures, or guidelines <a freewheeling investigation>

d : loose and undisciplined : not defensive <a freewheeling style of hockey>


Lets examine definition C for a moment and think about it. Which game has a formal rule or procedure for nearly everything and which doesn't?

What I am saying is that because the D20 mechanic is a part of the rule system, you are indeed free-wheeling it more often - but you are doing it because the RULES have called for it.

What I am saying is that because the d20 mechanic is part of the rules system you are indeed free wheeling it less often per the definition of the term.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I wasn't going to grant any XP in this topic until someone quoted Princess Bride. Exploder Wizard wins, but I can't give him XP right now. Inconceivable!

 

[Ariosto]

But 3E doesn't really have "more rules" does it? I mean, practically everything possible revolves around a single rule: D20 vs DC.

There's also

-- the rule of "roll something else versus something else" (e.g., damage dice versus damage reduction and hit points)

-- and the rule of "either you can do it or you can't" (e.g., either you have Combat Reflexes and get additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus, or you don't and don't).

AD&D has all of these as well. As you have repeatedly pointed out, usually (or always, were it in fact the case, which it is not) rolling d20 is by itself not really much of a rule. It gives just the same range -- from no chance of success to no chance of failure -- as rolling 2d6 or 1d100 or anything else.

What 3e adds of real utility is a bunch of benchmarks and algorithms and lists. Those are limiting factors, as is the resource-allocation "game of builds".

 

[Fifth Element]

The rules are telling me that only a thief can pick a lock or hide in shadows. The rules are telling me that the only guy who can "handle an animal" is a druid or someone with a spell. The rules are telling me that this is what I will always roll to lift some bars. The rules are telling me this is what I will roll to force a door open.

That might be what you're reading, but that's not what the rules say.