D&D 3E/3.5 AD&D vs 3e?

Summer-Knight925

First Post
So, I half want this thread to become an edition war, but not with 4e, it's just a theory I have that, unlike popular belief, there were just as many 3e haters as 4e haters, or more then once thought...

I am not going to take sides on any of the editions, but I'd like to know what you're favorite edition is and why, with facts and feelings and poetry if you really wanted, but not just AD&D and 3e, just in general, your favorite edition and why.
 

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White box OD&D, because it was all new.

[Over/Under till threadlock = 6]

I agree on the "all new" part, but setting that aside, I love both 1E and 3E. 1E left more to the imagination of the DM and therefore resulted in more surprises for the party. With a good DM, 1E is a blast to play.

On the other hand, 1E was only fun WHILE you were playing it. With all the character specialization options in 3E, it provides fun even when you are not actually playing b/c you can spend time on planning your build. This is a really cool aspect IMHO.

So, I like them both.

Since this may not satisfy your lust for an edition war, let me say that 4E, while a fun game, is not D&D at all but rather a live action MMO.

Oh... and I'll take the over (but not by much).
 

Every edition has something to offer, even my least favorite.

My top choice is probably- narrowly- 1e, but 2e has the best clerics, 3e makes fighters cool and 4e has the best tactical game-within-a-game. Older versions are awesome too but I played a lot less of them.
 

I'd have to say that I'm torn between Player's Option 2E and Pathfinder, though there are aspects of every edition of D&D that appeal to me. For instance, I love the race-as-class rules from Classic-- especially from the Gazetteer series-- and pretty much everything about 4E except the class system and the encounter focus.

Player's Option was the D&D that most felt like it was my D&D. A lot of the rules were questionable right out of the box and a lot of it could be easily broken in the wrong hands, but the flexibility of the Player's Option classes and proficiency systems are still unsurpassed within mainstream D&D. Those three books were like Unearthed Arcana-- either version-- Paizo's Advanced Player's Guide and ICE's Rolemaster combined.

By the time 3E was released, I'd customized 2E to the point that there were dozens of classes and each race-- including humans-- had its own unique list of classes that were available to it. I cannibalized the kits from the Complete PHBR series and used the custom class rules to completely redefine the differences between the various player races.

Pathfinder, likewise, is a close second in this regard but with much more robust and consistent rules. The Advanced Player's Guide brought back a level of detail and flexibility that I thought had been lost forever and the two Ultimate books have added a wealth of new options to the game. It's the best implementation of the d20 System yet, and it just keeps getting better.
 

D&D 3.0 > 3.5 was my favorite TSR/WotC game overall, extending to Pathfinder from Paizo now.

I liked 3.x over AD&D, BECMI, and the original because of vastly superior systems for character creation (excluding all splat books), character balance, character advancement, spell design, magic system, combat system, and outstanding layout, design, and artwork. Basically everything about 3.x was an improvement over what went before. Was it perfect in all respects? No. But nothing is and it was great.

The more I look at Pathfinder, the more it seems to give out just a little too much power to start for my taste, but it is still filled with wonderful ideas.
 

There was some hate, but not nearly the avalanche of hate that has come out of 3.5 vs 4th. I cut my teeth on 2nd ed, but have now played all of them. I was there when WotC sent the reps to our campus on the tour to sell us 3rd ed. I might still have the T-shirt somewhere. The overall view was positive though, no one argued that it wasn't DnD. Thi time frame might be an issue. 2nd ed was up for like 11 years before 3rd came out in 2000. Then in 3 years we have 3.5..Then 5 years later we have 4.0 in 2008. Now its only been 3 years and people are talking 5th ed. I think folks are nervous that the company is taking the same approach that they take to their card games and intend to come up with new editions every two to three years.
 

My pick : 2nd edition. I like the others as well, this is just my favorite.
Why? It matches most closely the type of fantasy feel I enjoy.
Case 1: Oscillating challenge. Or as I like to call it run from the wolves defeat the bears. Later systems are more balanced and have more guidance of how to pair the characterizes with level appropriate challenges. In previous edition that was not a given and it was up to the players to decide whether to make a stand or run. A group of 9 level character can be facing a group of gargoyles in one encounter and in another 25 level lich (Example taken from [FONT=Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Times]Ex Keraptis Cum Amore, Dun 77)[/FONT]. While the later is definably harder then the former both present challenge due to limited resources. Due to their (more) limited number of spells, spell casters did spend some battle not using spells, in favor of saving them for “rainy days”. This come close to my image at the time of what a heroic adventure should look like, based on the books I had read.

Case 2: DM Fiat. That is, it is more acceptable for the DM to pick and choose which rules to use or change/make them to make the game experience more enjoyable for all participants. I realize that is more of a culture thing, but the latter editions very detail rule setup lulls me and most of the people I games with into a false sense that RAW should not be changed ever.

Case 3: Settings
I like fluff over crunch. Another helping of Plancescape, everyone?

Case 4. Combat and pacing
I like fast. short and brutal multiple encounters. I like being able to run a published adventure in once game secession (4-5 hours).
Due to the lower hp totals, the feeling of danger permeates combat. So PCs often look for way to avoid getting in unnecessary fights.
[I only run a party to 14 level, so I cannot comment on higher levels but in my experience:] While magic-users eventually start to catch up to fighters in combat, thank to the easy spell failure, as illustrated in this example from drg 173:
“[...] foes can disrupt spellcasting by throwing almost anything at the caster: small sacks or pouches with flour in them, light (nondamaging) pebbles, even mud pies. The act of dodging a blow, which occurs if a spell-caster wants to apply his armor class bonus from dexterity to prevent his being struck, negates his spell-casting.”
and higher level monsters having a) better saves b)things like [fixed percent] spell resistance c)resistances and immunities. Well a mage may out deal out quite a bit a damage a few times, but the warrior classes did not become obsolete at high levels.

While there are not as many abilities, items and options; due to slower advancement (DMG suggest 3-6 adventures per level, in my experience is 4 or 5) players tend to improvice more with what they have and worry less about advancements and builds.

Case 5: While high stats are always desirable it is possible to play PC with some weaknesses. In 2ed DMG there is a section about playing “hopeless” characters that is pc with scores below average (3rd tried to do something similar in an article “Wise As An Ox, Strong As An Owl” drg 284). Since ability scores have to be higher before starting to make a difference in play char with 8 and another with 12 in a non class requisite score were mechanically similar and it fell on the player to rp them differently. In 2ed I had seen fighters with str of 14 and/or wisdom of 8, not in 3rd or at least not for long (they died off). In 4th that would be even more suicidal by RAW. I am not saying one is a better system, just that they make different assumptions. I just like being able to play the stereotypes without being over penalized.(big dim-witted fighter, the old mage with a bad cough)
Game story: I had a player with STR16 Int15 Wis 8. The player deiced to play him as somebody who is fascinated with the epic stories, and has a bard's memory and facination for them. The thing is character also believes them to be the unabated truth and try to measure him to their standard. That led to some very amusing rp.
Onlooker:"You can punch trough a stone wall?!"
PC: "Nah, even less known hero Trudegen the Sly in the Epic of Hongar managed to kick in a storm giant's keep door as indicated in verse..."
Onlooker:"That is very nice, but he is not here. You are. And ... YOU CAN PUNCH THROUGH A STONE WALL!!!!"

Case 6: Magic items.
Those items are less accessible and thus more covered, while there a lot of burred treasures in lost tombs the PCs have to actually go there to find them, instead of scrolling to the "Magic Mart". Even making items is an (excuse for) adventure. Not every item can be easily duplicated or usable in combat. That to me keeps them feeling mystical. Again I realize that may not be every ones preferred cup of tea, but it happens to be mine.

Is the game perfect? No. Do I like the flavors of other editions? Yes.
2nd just happens to be the one which most closely matches my preferred style of gaming.
 

There weren't as many edition wars over the 2e/3e transition, and those that existed weren't as bad, because 3e was more of a "logical transition" from 2e for many people: it incorporated houserules that people were already using or dropped rules they'd been ignoring for a while, it kept the mechanical basis for the game mostly the same while revising the core (to the point that a plurality of 3e spells, items, and other features were directly copy-pasted from 2e), and it just generally flowed better. On the other hand, while 1e->2e was basically a fluff change to remove the "objectionable" material and introduce a bunch of new settings and 2e->3e kept the fluff and overall structure mostly the same while tweaking the mechanical core, 4e changed quite a bit about both at the same time, which is why the "3e is Diablo!" and "Put the A back in my D&D!" and similar misguided comments weren't nearly as vehement in 2000 as the "4e is WoW!" and such were in 2008.

As to which edition I prefer, I'm torn. On the one hand, when it comes to rules-heavy systems like D&D and GURPS, I'm a very strong believer in the DM/GM "playing by the same rules as the players," by which I mean the GM controls the world and can make you lose if he wants, so the real challenge is to work within the rules to make good challenges and exciting monsters and stuff. Giving monsters arbitrary abilities, tweaking numbers on the fly if the baddies are dying too easily, or fudging rolls aren't really kosher in my book. That's why I like 3e's more consistent and comprehensive rules base, the fact that monsters run on the same system as the PCs and monsters are playable, and similar changes that mean you can run adventures without the slightest need to make up rules or use DM fiat. Not that it would be a problem if I did, of course--my players trust me and I trust them, and I houserule where necessary--but it's the principle of the thing.

On the other hand, while conceptually 3e is everything I ever wanted, the implementation kind of sucked. Monsters use the same system as the PCs...but it takes too long to stat random mooks. Combat maneuvers are now standardized for everyone...but they're rarely worth it. And so on and so forth; no need to rehash 3e's balance problems. 3e is one of the most playtested games out there, and is actually better-balanced and less-breakable than any of them, but when it comes right down to it AD&D didn't really have a magic/martial disparity nearly as bad as that of 3e (thanks to different XP tracks, the casting/initiative system, the lack of Concentration, etc.), there weren't nearly as many "trap options" as in 3e (because blasting actually worked, movement rules meant tanking was possible, etc.), and generally the problems that 2e and 3e share aren't as bad in 2e. The fiddly and clunky things of 2e like THAC0, weapon speeds, and the like weren't ever problems for my groups because we were a bunch of math nerds who could handle varying subsystems and confusing details and such just fine.

So overall, I'd have to say I like both, as much of a cop-out as that might seem to be. Both let you stat practically anything, given Players Options/UA/splatbooks; both have that uniquely D&D flavor of alignment and color-coded dragons and Vancian magic and such; both are games I grew up with (though technically it went 2e->1e->3e with my group).
 

Castles and Crusades
- Almost everything in C&C is also in 3E and 4E. Players don't have to learn new rules, it just removes rules
- 3.x/4E munchkins can't min-max the game with crazy feats and multiclass combinations
- 3.x/4E rules lawyers (generally the same crowd) can't argue with my interpretations of the rules
- I almost never have to crack open a book
- Compatible with almost all 1E/2E products, with a little work (this is my go-to game for Ravenloft/Dark Sun/Planescape)
- Does not appear to be built on a model of planned obsolescence
- Effectively fixes 1E with d20 innovations
- Simplest/fastest D&D edition ever
- Character creation is fast without players spending a half an hour on picking feats and powers
- Easiest system for new and lapsed D&D players to grasp

It would be nice if the game had the PF CMB/CMD innovation

I've found the more options players have the less they seem to roleplay and the more they seem to think about illogical multiclassing strategies.
 

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