AD&D1 Combat Exercise

[Griffith Dragonlake]

Sure, but basketball isn't melee with a shield in your hand.

Ask your nearest re-enactor, SCA member or other experienced medievalist; facing matters over periods of six seconds.

Speaking as an ex-SCAdian, "Hell yes, facing matters!" For that matter, so do helms. I used the helm rule in the DMG religously.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

Movement: 12" (magical armor is weightless, and does not hinder movement rate)

Doesn't the DMG state that plate mail is bulky and thus movement is always 6" regardless of the weight?

 

[T. Foster]

Doesn't the DMG state that plate mail is bulky and thus movement is always 6" regardless of the weight?

The DMG is contradictory. In one place (the section on armor near the front of the book) it states that magic armor weighs 1/2 and is one class less bulky than non-magical armor of the same type. However, in another place (the section on magic items near the back of the book) it says that all magic armor is effectively weightless and non-bulky. Later practice (pregens and NPCs in modules, etc.) always went with the second interpretation, so that's what most people tend to go with.

 

[Celebrim]

Bugbears are clever but they ain't that clever.

Now if you said yellow mold or a black pudding...well, that'd be different!



(And before anyone starts to rail, I always thought that was one of the coolest little kinks in the MONSTER MANUAL - that those mindless creatures could on occasion reduce the brain of some haughty adventurer to so much tapioca!)

You wouldn't be the only one. I think every DM creates a place in his world for a super-dungeon. Mine had (among much other nastiness), the 'King in Yellow' - a super-powerful psionic yellow mold.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Doesn't the DMG state that plate mail is bulky and thus movement is always 6" regardless of the weight?

That's a notorious inconsistency in 1e.

When magic armor is worn, assume that its properties allow movement at the next higher base rate and that weight is cut by 50%.

For game purposes all magical armor should be considered as being virtually weightless - equal to normal clothing, let us assume. This gives characters so clad a movement speed equal to an unarmored man.

 

[Twowolves]

I think it might be worth finding out who exactly understood the repeated 20s rule on the combat table and which ones required natural 20s to hit and which ones didn't. There's a reason THAC0 appeared in later days of 1e, even from semi official sources (RPGA tournaments, as I recall), house ruling the repeated 20s away.

Thac0 was in the back of the 1st ed DMG, in the monster summary tables.

The first 20 was "20 with mods", and the others were "natural 20s". I believe it's spelled out explicity in either the DMG or in the 1st ed DM screens. I do know there was a further extrapolation of the repeating 20s in "Isle of the Ape", wherein the attacker gets bonus damage if he need less than 1 to hit the target's AC. Such that if you needed a -2 to hit AC5, you automatically hit and did an extra 2 points of damage.

 

[Delta]

That's a notorious inconsistency in 1e.

You've also got the place on PHB p. 36 that says magic armor totally wipes out weight/movement issues. All told, it's a 2:1 vote that it's totally weight-free. (Not that I personally like that.)

The first 20 was "20 with mods", and the others were "natural 20s". I believe it's spelled out explicity in either the DMG or in the 1st ed DM screens.

Not quite; as pointed out earlier, what you're referencing is the suggested "modification" (i.e., variant/amendment) outlined on DMG p. 82.

 

[gizmo33]

That's really not true in the 1e RAW. There are illustrations for how a PC can be surrounded, who gets the shield AC, who gets the rear AC, and the difference between using square vs hex grids. That implies things being pretty static in overall relationship between attacker and defender. That said, there were also rules for shooting into melee that suggested a certain amount of bobbing and weaving since it was unpredictable who the target of the ranged attack would be.

Dagnabbit! This has to happen on every single 1E thread I suppose. A few sentences after the "illustrations" that you're talking about are given, the statement is made that you may "mentally visualize the situation" using the grids as a guideline. Repeatedly in the rules, including the part you cite, judgement is given priority, or at least equal weight, with any kind of static tool. The best example: the combat rules start out with - "Envision if you will, a fencing, boxing, or karate match". IMO the nature of the ADnD game was judgement and flexibility, which is at odds with the precision required for 3E-type rules like 5 ft steps, AoOs, and the other things that IMO a "battlegrid system" seems to imply.

So the implication of a "static relationship between attacker and defender" that you see in the grid system, to me, is counteracted by numerous and repeated statements in the combat rules that suggest the opposite.

If there were anyone who did, I have never encountered them. Tons of rules went out the window, some unpredictably and some quite predictably, from table to table. There may have been some people playing by the RAW initially back when the rules first hit the bookstores, but I expect that most drifted substantially after that.

I have a theory that's based on no actual facts but sounds nice and is similar to what you're saying. When the 1E books came out there were two types of people. One were kids that were ages 9-13 (see the poll on ages if you don't believe me). Those kids probably had a copy of the Basic set (Holmes or later Red Booklet) and piece-wise incorporated ADnD rules into their game. The other type of DnD'er was an old-schooler who learned DND from the ODnD booklets, had probably worked out their own house systems for some aspects combat, and adapted (like the kids) the ADnD rules to their existing game as appropriate - grabbing the cool stuff first ("hey, different weapons do different damage"). I think the fact that there were at least 3 sets of rules (and probably a few variant systems in magazines) that you could have learned DnD combat from would account for the differences that I see nowadays when people talk about their 1E games. I don't think the bulk of the people playing DnD at the time had the patience (the kids) or the interest/need (the ODnD guys) to work out/understand the more arcane rule subsystems. Which I think leaves the impression of 1E as a "rules light" game because it was ok to throw out 50% of the RAW.

Of course my avatar always takes his life in his hands when he makes these claims because the existing grognards who are most vocal about 1E these days are the most likely persons to have played 1E RAW. FWIW, I actually love the 1E rules like a fondly remembered first wife who died and left me a million dollars in her will, so all of this is meant respectfully.

Just for old times sake I'd like to see the description of a battle between a 1E monk, dark elf thief-acrobat, and a chimera (don't forget all of the armorclasses!)

 

[T. Foster]

Just for fun, I'm going to re-run this combat, using the rules corrections I posted and some adjusted tactics for the monsters to see if the results are any different. Wherever possible I'm going to try to stick to Quasqueton's original format/wording and die-rolls:

Sample combat with the AD&D1 rules.

*******************

The PC:

Yrag, the Lord* [I will refer to the Player as "Gary"]
Fighter 9

Strength: 18/46 (+1 to hit, +3 damage)**
Intelligence: 14
Wisdom: 14
Dexterity: 16 (+1 reaction/missile, -2 defense)
Constitution: 16 (+2 hit points)
Charisma: 17

Armor Class: -4
plate mail +2, shield +2, dexterity

Movement: 12" (magical armor is weightless, and does not hinder movement rate)

Hit Points: 81

Attack: 3/2 rounds; +2 with longsword on level 9 column of fighter attack matrix
Longsword +1, Flame Tongue

Damage: +4 to 1d8 against Small or Medium size creatures, or 1d12 against Large size creatures
Longsword +1 Flame Tongue

Notable Equipment
Plate Mail +2
Shield +2
Longsword +1, Flame Tongue
Boots of Feather Falling
Ring of Invisibility
Scroll of Protection from Elementals (all)
Potion of Storm Giant Strength

* This is one of Gary Gygax’s old characters, taken straight from a module by EGG’s old DM.
** I’m only including the modifiers that actually affect combat.

* * *

The opponents:

8 goblins, 4 hobgoblins, 2 bugbears

Goblins x8
AC: 6
Move: 6"
HD: "1-7 hit points" – that’s technically 1-1 HD
HP: 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 7
Attack: 1 short sword or 1 [footman's] military pick in 1-1 HD column of monster attack matrix
Damage: 1d6 or 1d6+1

Hobgoblins x4
AC: 5
Move: 9"
HD: 1+1
HP: 4, 4, 5, 7
Attack: 1 [long] sword or 2 composite [short] bow in 1+ HD column of monster attack matrix
Damage: 1d8 or 1d6

Bugbear x2
AC: 5
Move: 9"
HD: 3+1
HP: 14, 16
Attack: 1 spear (thrown) or 1 morning star in the 2-3+ column of the Monster attack matrix
Damage: 1d6 or 2d4

Now, the fight:

Yrag starts this encounter by entering a large chamber with a group of goblinoids [Yrag's sword is out and ignited before entering this encounter, thus negating his invisibility from the ring.]

Check for surprise: DM rolls 1d6 [4] for goblinoids (not surprised), Gary rolls 1d6 [2] for Yrag (surprised for 2 segments, but Yrag has +1 surprise modifier for Dexterity 16, so he is only surprised for 1 segment).*

[According to the rules, DMG 62, if surprise occurs, the parties begin the encounter 10-30 feet apart. So a roll of 1d3 [3] shows that the goblinoids are 30 feet away.]

The goblinoids have 1 surprise segment for action:
The goblins charge 12 feet toward the human intruder (Movement 6" doubled for charging = 12' per segment).

The hobgoblins shoot their bows. Normally, they get a full round's worth of attacks, but if their bows are "ready", they get three times the normal number of attacks. Well, I'll say half of the hobgoblins have their bows ready. So, two hobgoblins get to shoot their bows 2 times, and two get to shoot 6 times. Range is Short.
Hobgoblin#1 shot 1: roll 1d20 [3] -3 AC for short composite bow vs. AC 2** = 3 total attack vs. AC -7 = miss (needs 20)
Hobgoblin#2 shot 1: roll 1d20 [14] -3 AC for short composite bow vs. AC 2 = 14 total attack vs. AC -7 = miss
Hobgoblin#3 shot 1: roll [11] = miss
Hobgoblin#4 shot 1: roll [8] = miss
Hobgoblin#1 shot 2: roll [19] = miss
Hobgoblin#2 shot 2: roll [17] = miss
Hobgoblin#3 shot 2: roll [11] = miss
Hobgoblin#4 shot 2: roll [15] = miss
Hobgoblin#3 shot 3: roll [7] = miss
Hobgoblin#4 shot 3: roll [9] = miss
Hobgoblin#3 shot 4: roll [20] = hit
Hobgoblin#3 damage: roll 1d6 [6] = Yrag takes 6 damage (puts him at 75 hit points)
Hobgoblin#4 shot 4: roll [20] = hit
Hobgoblin#4 damage: roll [4] = Yrag takes 4 damage (puts him at 71 hit points)
Hobgoblin#3 shot 5: roll [19] = miss
Hobgoblin#4 shot 5: roll [19] = miss
Hobgoblin#3 shot 6: roll [8] = miss
Hobgoblin#4 shot 6: roll [7] = miss

The bugbears wait for the pipsqueaks to test the human.

The surprise segment is over. The goblins are 18 feet away from Yrag and closing; the hobgoblins are 30 feet away and shooting, and the bugbears are 30 feet away and standing their ground.


Round One

Time for initiative. Gary must declare "precisely and without delay" his intended actions for this round, and the DM must decide on the goblinoids' actions. Gary says he will charge the goblins. The DM decides the goblins will attempt as a group to overbear Yrag, the hobgoblins will change weapons and close to melee range, the bugbears will hold.

Check for initiative: DM rolls 1d6 [5] for the goblinoids, Gary rolls 1d6 [6] for Yrag. Yrag has the initiative, on, technically, the 2nd segment of the round.

The goblins and Yrag are both charging each other. Since Yrag's movement rate is double that of the goblins, we will say that he closes 2/3 of the remaining distance (12') to their 1/3 (6') and they meet at a point 18' from the goblinoids original position (which remains the bugbears present position).

First attack at the end of a charge is determined by comparing weapon length. Yrag's longsword (3 1/2') is longer than the goblins' open hands (2') so he gets first strike. Normally, he would be entitled to multiple attacks both because this is an odd-numbered round and he has 3/2 attacks, and also because goblins have less than a full hit die. However, because he charged this round, he only receives one attack.

Yrag attacks random goblin: roll 1d8 [4] = Yrag attacks goblin#4
Yrag attacks goblin#4: roll 1d20 [10] +2 from character sheet, +2 charge bonus, +0 long sword vs. AC 6 = 12 total attack vs. AC 7 (goblin suffers -1 AC penalty from charging) = hit (needs 5)
Yrag damage: roll 1d8 [2] +4 from character sheet = 6 total damage = kills goblin#4

Remaining goblins close and surround Yrag and attempt to overbear him as a group. Because Yrag charged this round he loses his Dex AC bonus. Since Yrag is size M and the goblins are size S he can be attacked by up to 8 of them simultaneously, however there are only 7 goblins remaining. Because there are 7 goblins all attempting to overbear Yrag they gain +6 on their to hit roll. However, because Yrag is size M and the goblins are size S he receives a +4 AC bonus (making his total AC -6).
GoblinGroup overbear attack: roll 1d20 [6] (against AC -6) +7 group attack bonus = 13 total attack = miss (needs 21)

The hobgoblins draw their swords and close to melee range with Yrag, requiring them to close a distance of 18', which they can easily do with a move rate of 9" (90' per round).

The bugbears continue to hold their ground (getting a kick out of seeing the little pipsqueaks attempting to drag down this walking tin-can).


Round Two

Time for initiative. Gary declares that Yrag will continue to attack the goblins. The DM decides what the goblinoids will do. The DM considers whether he should check for the goblinoids' morale, but decides that although they have lost one member they've also inflicted some damage so Yrag isn't (yet) deemed to be an "obviously superior force" -- so fight on! The DM decides the goblins will once again attempt to overbear, the hobgoblins will fill in any gaps to attack Yrag that might open up (there is currently room for only 1 additional size S opponent to surround Yrag, and the hobgoblins are size M so they will not fit within that space), and the bugbears will still hold.

Check for initiative: DM rolls [1], Gary rolls [6]. Yrag has initiative, again.

As a fighter against 0-level opponents, Yrag gets one attack per level (9), whereas the goblins only get one attack each (or, in this case, one group attack). So Yrag gets his first 4 attacks first, then initiative determines which comes first between Yrag's 5th attack and the goblins' attack, then Yrag gets his final 4 attacks last. Note that Yrag no longer gets his charge bonus on the attack, nor do the goblins suffer an AC penalty.
Yrag attacks random goblin: roll [6]
Yrag attacks goblin#6: roll [12] = 14 = hit (needs 6)
Yrag damage: roll [8] = 12 = kills goblin#6
Yrag attacks random goblin: roll [5]
Yrag attacks goblin#5: roll [1] = 3 = miss (natural 1s are not auto misses)
Yrag attacks random goblin: roll [1]
Yrag attacks goblin#1: roll [4] = 6 = hit
Yrag damage: roll [5] = 9 = kills goblin#1
Yrag attacks random goblin: roll [3]
Yrag attacks goblin#3: roll [10] = 12 = hit
Yrag damage: roll [3] = 7 = kills goblin#3
Yrag attacks random goblin: roll [7]
Yrag attacks goblin#7: roll [13] = 15 = hit
Yrag damage: roll [3] = 7 = kills goblin#7

Only 3 of the 8 original goblins (#2, #5, and #8) remain facing Yrag, so the DM declares a morale check at +15% (base check for 50% casualties) + an additional 10% (for taking casualties without giving any). The goblins morale value as 1-1 HD monsters is 50%. Roll [04] = 29 total = the goblins' morale holds!

There is now sufficient space for 3 hobgoblins to join in the attack, so they do so -- joining with the goblins in their attempt to overbear Yrag. 6 attackers gives +5 on the roll, but since they are a mixed size S and M group against a size M opponent, Yrag still gets his +4 AC bonus (making his total AC -8).

GoblinGroup overbear attack: roll [14] = 19 = miss (needs 21)

Yrag is still allowed 4 more attacks against the goblins (but no attacks against the hobgoblins) so he takes them:
Yrag attacks random goblin: roll 1d3 [3]
Yrag attacks goblin#8: roll [17] = 19 = hit
Yrag damage: roll [7] = 11 = kills goblin#8
Yrag attacks random goblin: roll 1d2 [2]
Yrag attacks goblin#5: roll [4] = 6 = hit
Yrag damage: roll [2] = 6 = kills goblin#5
Yrag attacks goblin#2: roll [4] = 6 = hit
Yrag damage: roll [4] = 8 = kills goblin#2
As there are no goblins remaining, Yrag loses his 9th attack for the round.

Bugbears realize perhaps they'll have to join this battle after all.


Round Three

Time for initiative. Gary declares that Yrag will attack the hobgoblins. The DM decides that the 4th hobgoblins will join the fray and he entire group will make one more attempt to overbear, and the bugbears will charge into battle, hurling their spears as they come.***

Check for initiative. DM rolls [2], Gary rolls [1]. Goblinoids have the initiative, however, as this is an odd-numbered round in which Yrag receives 2 attacks, his attacks will wrap around the hobgoblins' attack, regardless of initiative. The bugbears' missile attack will still occur first.

The bugbears throw their spears at the mid-point of their move, so 9' away from the melee = short range (no to hit adjustment). As there are 5 man-sized combatants in the melee (Yrag and 4 hobgoblins), each missile will have a 20% chance to attack Yrag and an 80% chance to attack one of the hobgoblins.

Bugbear#1 attacks random combatant: roll [67] = hobgoblin
Bugbear#1 attacks random hobgoblin: roll 1d4 [2]
Bugbear#1 attacks Hobgoblin#2: roll [12] -2 thrown spear vs. AC 5 = 10 = miss (needs 11)
Bugbear#2 attacks random combatant: roll [15] = Yrag
Bugbear#2 attacks Yrag: roll [17] -3 AC for thrown spear vs. AC 2 = miss (needs 20 against AC -7)

Yrag attacks random hobgoblin: roll [4]
Yrag attacks hobgoblin#4: roll 1d20 [14] +2, +0 vs. AC 5 = 16 = hit (needs 7)
Yrag damage: roll [5] = 9 = kill hobgoblin#4

The 3 remaining hobgoblins once again attempt to overbear Yrag. 3 attackers = +2 to hit, size M vs. size M = no AC adjustment for Yrag.

HobgoblinGroup overbear attack: roll [3] = 5 = miss (needs 20)

The bugbears charge into melee and attack Yrag with their morning stars. Yrag is currently engaged against 3 size M opponents, leaving room for 3 more size M or 2 size L -- just enough for both bugbears. We'll assume for the sake of convenience that the hobgoblins are on Yrag's flanks and rear, so the bugbears will both be attacking his front.

Bugbear#1 attacks: roll 1d20 [2] +0 morning star vs. AC 2 = 2 = miss (needs 20)
Bugbear#2 attacks: roll [5] = 5 = miss

Yrag takes his second attack against a random opponent.
Yrag attacks random hobgoblin: roll 1d5 [2] = Hobgoblin#2
Yrag attacks Hobgoblin#2: roll [18] = 20 = hit
Yrag damage: roll [2] = 6 = kills Hobgoblin#2

Morale check time for the hobgoblins at +25%. Hobgoblins' morale as 1+1 HD creatures is 51%. Roll [45] = 70 = +19%. The hobgoblins will attempt to disengage-retreat next round.


Round Four

Time for initiative. Gary declares that Yrag will continue to attack -- not yet realizing that the hobgoblins' morale has broken. The DM decides that the bugbears will continue to attack with their morning stars and Bugbear#2 will move to Yrag's rear flank; the hobgoblins' failed morale check dictates that they will attempt to disengage and retreat.

Check for initiative: DM rolls [3], Gary rolls [4]. Yrag has the initiative.

Yrag attacks random opponent: roll 1d4 [2] = Hobgoblin#3
Yrag attacks hobgoblin#3: roll [5] = 7 = hit (needs 7)
Yrag damage: roll [3] = 7 = kills hobgoblin#3

Hobgoblin#1 attempts to break off from melee, allowing Yrag a free rear attack at +4 to hit.
Yrag attacks Hobgoblin#1: roll [19] = 25 = hit
Yrag damage: roll [2] = 4 = kills hobgoblin#1

The two bugbears attack Yrag. Bugbear#1 is attacking Yrag's front (AC -4), Bugbear#2 is attacking his rear flank (AC 1):
Bugbear#1 attack: roll [15] = 15 = miss
Bugbear#2 attack: roll [20] +1 morning star vs. AC 3 = 21 = hit (needs 15)
Bugbear#2 damage" roll 2d4 [4] = Yrag takes 4 points of damage (now at 67 hit points)


Round Five

Gary declares that Yrag will continue to fight the bugbears (unfortunately, they are arranged such that no matter how he turns, one will be on his flank). The DM decides that the bugbears will also continue to attack.

There is no need to check initiative, as Yrag's attacks will automatically occur 1st and last, with the bugbears attacks in-between.

Yrag attacks random bugbear: roll 1d2 [1]
Yrag attacks bugbear#1: roll [1] +2, +0 long sword vs. AC 5 = 3 = miss (needs 7, and natural 1s are not auto misses)

Bugbear#1 attacks: roll [16] = 16 = miss (needs 20)
Bugbear#2 attacks: roll [3] = 4 = miss (needs 15)

Yrag takes his second attack.
Yrag attacks random bugbear: roll [1]
Yrag attacks bugbear#1: roll [13] = 15 = hit
Yrag damage: roll 1d12 (bugbears are size L creatures) [3] = 5 = bugbear#1 is now at 9 hit points

The DM does not feel the need to check the bugbears' morale.


Round Six

Time for initiative. Gary declares that Yrag will continue to fight the bugbears. The DM decides that bugbear#1 will continue to attack with his morning star, but bugbear#2 will attempt to overbear Yrag.

Check for initiative: DM rolls [4], Gary rolls [2]. The bugbears have the initiative.

Bugbear#1 attacks: roll [13] = 13 = miss
Bugbear#2 attacks: roll [13] +2 (size L overbearing size M) = 15 = hits (needs 15)
Yrag falls prone and loses his action for the round.


Round Seven

Gary declares that Yrag will attempt to get to his feet. The bugbears will both attack him with their morning stars while he is down.

No need to check initiative because only the bugbears are attacking.

Bugbear#1 attacks: roll 1d20 [14] +1 morning star vs. AC 2, +4 vs prone opponent = 19 = hit (needs 15)
Bugbear#1 damage: roll [4] = Yrag takes 4 points of damage (now at 63 hit points)
Bugbear#2 attacks: roll [1] = 6 = miss (natual 1s are not auto misses)

Yrag is back on his feet at the end of the round.

The DM decides to check morale for the bugbears since they are facing an obviously superior force. The bugbears' morale as 3+1 HD monsters is 61%. Roll [92] = +31%. The bugbears will flee in panic.


Round Eight

Time for initiative. Gary declares that Yrag will continue to fight the bugbears. The DM already knows that the bugbears will attempt to flee.

Check for initiative: DM rolls [3], Gary rolls [3]. Tied initiative. So check weapon speed factors. Long sword has speed factor 5, morning stars have speed factor 7: Yrag gets initiative.

Yrag attacks bugbear#1: roll [14] = 16 = hit (needs 7)
Yrag damage: roll 1d12 [9] = 13 = kills bugbear#1

Bugbear#2 withdraws from combat, drawing a free attack from Yrag.
Yrag attacks bugbear#2: roll [5] = 11 = hit (needs 7)
Yrag damage: roll 1d12 [7] = 11 = bugbear#2 now at 5 hit points

Bugbear#2 gets away, and flees 180' away from Yrag.

Yrag realizes that he could catch the bugbear eventually since he has a higher move rate, but doesn't consider it worthwhile to chase a lone bugbear possibly a considerable distance into the unknown, and therefore declines to pursue.

End of this combat.

At the end, Yrag killed 8 goblins, 4 hobgoblins, and 1 bugbear, and he stands fairly well at 63 hit points (lost 18, not quite 20% of his total). One bugbear got away. The fight took 8 rounds. The extra/different rules and tactics for the monsters ended up not making much difference after all -- the fight lasted one rounds fewer, Yrag took 8 more points of damage, and one of the bugbears got away (and could perhaps return with help).

* 10 six-second segments to the one-minute round. Combat normally happens in rounds, but some special situations (like surprise and spell casting) break down into segments.
** The weapon vs. AC chart listed ACs by number, not by type. Plate +2 and shield +2 and Dexterity bonus +2 may give a total AC of -4, but for this chart, it still counts as AC 2 (standard plate and shield) or AC 3 (plate only) for flank/rear attacks.
*** This maneuver isn't explicitly allowed by the DMG rules, but is mentioned in the Combat Example in the PH and is explicitly allowed in Chainmail and Swords & Spells (the sources from which most of the AD&D combat system is drawn)

 

[Geoffrey]

In practice, the game we usually played was very close to Classic D&D mechanically, but with the 1E races, classes, monsters and magic items.

That pretty much describes us. Our combat system in our "AD&D" games has always been pretty much that of the Basic D&D rulebook edited by Holmes, who gave us a blessedly short 4-page combat section. I can only admire those who have sifted through and understood all the minutiae of AD&D combat.