adding Oomph to high-level encounters

[LostSoul]

I think I need to hear more meat about the idea of combats being handled as a skill challenge... the gambit that resulted in the Wyvern being by itself is certainly just the first part of that challenge right?

I have no idea how I'd resolve getting it alone. Depending on the plan, it might be a skill challenge of its own, a single roll, or automatic success/failure. Let's assume it succeeds.

This is how I would do it:

[sblock=Wyvern Roost Fight]First of all, I'd describe the area:

DM: Okay, so there's a long, tall stone pillar, like a natural tower rising out of the ground. You climb up it. It's like a bowl, depressed area in the middle. The wyverns have made a nest out of wood, grass, and bone, and there's a thick clump of it in the middle.

Here, let me sketch a picture. [I draw a picture, a map, but not a battlemap.]

There's a wyvern sleeping over here. It's breathing heavy, it's tail is waving back and forth. Whoever has the lowest Stealth check, roll Stealth. It'll be Hard because it's hard to be quiet while climbing.

Fighter: That's me. But I have Sure Climber.

Okay, add a +2 bonus.

Rogue: Can I help?

DM: I don't know, how can you help him?

Rogue: I stay right next to him and try and hold all the jingly parts of his armour from moving, so he doesn't make any noise.

DM: Oh, okay, that makes sense. Roll.

<Success!>

It stirs a bit, but it hasn't woken up. What do you do now?

Rogue: I am going to stab him in the heart.

Fighter: Let's spread out and surround him.

Other PCs: <do so>

DM: Okay, Rogue, stab him. Make an attack roll. It'll be easy since he's sleeping.

<Success!>

Okay, you place your sword over where you think his heart is and push. It slides in deeply and hot, foul blood pours out. The wyvern rises in pain! It lashes out with its tail. The wizard over here is hit by the tail and pushed over the side!

Wizard: Crap! I try to dodge out of the way.

DM: Okay, make a Reflex roll. Just subtract 10 from your Reflex and add that to the d20.

<Failure>

DM: Okay, it smacks you hard and you go tumbling over the side. It's about 50 feet down. You'll be at 0 HP and bleeding out...

Fighter: Can I try to grab him?

DM: No, you're way over here.

Cleric: How about me?

DM: Sure, make an Athletics check.

Cleric: Cool, made it!

DM: Okay, as he slides off the edge you jump and grab onto him as he falls. Wizard, lose a healing surge.

Now the wyvern starts beating its wings, blood still pumping out from its wound. It's hovering about 20 feet off the ground. What do you do?

PCs: I attack him!

DM: Okay, let's just make one attack roll - I don't care who it is - and anyone else who shoots at the wyvern can help.

Wizard, Cleric, you're dangling over the side. The Wizard can blast him, but the Cleric can't - unless you want to let go?

Cleric: I'll hold onto him.

DM: Okay. Roll.

<Success>

You pelt it with attacks and it turns to flee! What do you do?

PCs: We kill it!

DM: Okay, attack it again.

<Success>

As it flies away, you nail it and it drops to the ground. 500 xp.[/sblock]

 

[LostSoul]

But thank you for responding! What do you think of my suggested house rule...?

It's dangerous because the damage is so high. I think it would work, though -there won't be grind in the fight!

edit: Here's a thought. You could continually up the damage by 2d6 each round until it maxes out. Then players will have a chance to flee before massive damage starts to fall on them.

 

[Mesh Hong]

For each level the encounter is higher than the party, it (the encounter) gets 1d6 bonus damage per round.
This bonus damage is to be distributed among all the encounter's creatures and all their attacks. If the encounter consists of a single Solo monster, it gets all of them. If the encounter consists of one chieftain and two dozen minion troopers, I'd only give them to the Chieftain (assuming he doesn't miss!). Note how, like striker bonus damage, you (the DM) only need to use these bonus damage dice on attacks that actually hit. You're supposed to be able to deal this extra damage each and every round, so it isn't tied down to any specific combatant or attack form.

Also, feel free to invent more attacks (especially when your only monster is a Solo) and apply the bonus damage to that attack. For instance, you could break the rules and have your Red Dragon do a Bite despite the fact it also does a Double Claw attack. Anything goes, as long as the extra damage is delivered...!

Its an interesting situation, and very....situational. But I would probably lean towards keeping the creature as stated in the book (if it was that important and a forseen encounter I would have created an appropriate stat block before hand. But that is not the situation we are talking about)

But I would add either 1 or 2 actions points and give it at least a double attack, maybe even a tripple attack it was significantly higher level, I would also consider a reaction basic attack when hit in melee.

I think just adding bonus damage goes against the spirit of monster design in 4e, and adding extra attacks and action points will achieve a similar end result that will seem a lot more reasonable to your players.

However in the case in point, a Wyvern returned from petrification, I would probably have it only fight for a couple of rounds before fleeing itself. Then later when it gets its bearing it might return to extract its revenge against its 'captors' or in this case the location it escaped from.

This would give the players a quick battle against a fierce foe, then relief that the threat has gone, then the fear that it might return. In a sandbo....your type of game this would be a whole new plot hook. Will the players try and track down the foe before it comes back? Will they try and marshal the towns defences to protect it in case of the threats return? Will they do some digging into how the creature came to be there in the first place? will they move away from the area and leave nature to run its course?

All good stuff. And the fact that the creature has left gives you the scope and time to prepare a better encounter.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Not sure I really see the core problem. If you want a monster to DEFINITELY defeat the party then just make it even higher level. There is a Fell Wyvern that is 24th level! That might be a bit much, but it would work for say a 10th level party, maybe even 8th. For a 4th level party I'm thinking the level 10 wyvern if properly run is going to be plenty tough.

So my scenario is basically the wyvern somehow depetrifies in the middle of a tavern. It is a Large creature with a STR of 24. The townspeople are all about 97% minions. At best they could form into rabble, but once the thing eats a couple, the rest are gone. Perhaps you'll have a couple of nearby guards to help you.

Once the wyvern gets into the air, which it should do instantly as its +10 to initiative puts it likely well ahead of the party. Even if not the best they can do is run up and melee the thing. If the area is too limiting to allow it to fly, then it is going to bust right out, either through a window or the door, etc.

I don't think a level 4 party, even busting out with everything is going to kill it or lock it down right away. They are only hitting on like 16+ 3 rounds of fire is not going to kill it. Once its in the air most 4th level parties are pretty hosed. As long as the wyvern stays 2 squares up in the air nobody can hit it with a melee weapon, and it can make a flyby attack plus a move.

I don't imagine it is impossible to defeat, but it can almost certainly escape if it is wounded badly and could easily kill some of the party.

Fundamentally though I just don't understand your argument. Regardless if the wyvern is strong enough to do the job, you can already do plenty of things to toughen it up. Just give it 4 or 5 extra levels. It won't increase the things damage vastly, but it will put its defenses beyond reach and that should clue in the party that it is leaving time, because a 15th level wyvern is going to laugh at the party. There is always an appropriate monster to use or modify a bit.

 

[LostSoul]

They are only hitting on like 16+

This is why you should fear (love) the Human Warlord.

He delays until all the other PCs act. Someone flanks for him, and they all Aid his attack roll. He spends an action point with Action Surge to hit it with Lead the Attack. He has a +20 or so on his attack roll, and if he hits, that 16+ drops down to 11+.

In the next round, PCs start blowing Daily powers and Action Points.

I'd be surprised if it lasted 3 rounds.

 

[CapnZapp]

It's dangerous because the damage is so high. I think it would work, though -there won't be grind in the fight!

edit: Here's a thought. You could continually up the damage by 2d6 each round until it maxes out. Then players will have a chance to flee before massive damage starts to fall on them.

Thx - well, my experience is that adventurers have plenty of hp to give them time to make up their mind as it is (basically; flee or blow all dailies?). Most parties will also have quite a few healing powers that only requires minor actions, so unless the BBEG drops a PC straight from maximum to negative hits in a single round (which in 4E isn't exactly a big concern - not even with my houserule) there shouldn't be much of a problem.

I would like to show my hand straight away - part of the problem is when the party doesn't realize straight away what kind of opposition they're up against.

Of course this won't negate the possibility an unlucky group of adventurers can stumble upon a foe which not only is more powerful than them, but faster too. Then they need to get clever to avoid a TPK (unless the DM is lenient and his monster only plucks a single PC and allows the rest to flee... )

Even when the TPK is unavoidable the rule will be useful: at least it's mercifully quick...

 

[CapnZapp]

But I would add either 1 or 2 actions points and give it at least a double attack, maybe even a tripple attack it was significantly higher level, I would also consider a reaction basic attack when hit in melee.

I think just adding bonus damage goes against the spirit of monster design in 4e, and adding extra attacks and action points will achieve a similar end result that will seem a lot more reasonable to your players.

Thank you - good point.

I guess I wish the DMG guidelines were as explicit about adding better (or rather "more") offense to elites/solos as it is about adding defense...

 

[CapnZapp]

I imagine a group of level 3s and 4s should tear a level 10 single mob apart... since by xp it's actually a level _1_ encounter, and wouldn't get any bonus dice at all, right?

Right.

But wrong.

I don't think going by the book (and the xp guidelines) is the right approach here. The relevant statistic here is the number six. As in, the solitary monster is six levels higher than the average party level.

Remember, everything in 4E is geared towards multi-monster brawls.

And; my aim is specifically to transform this critter into an interesting encounter without taking to the end-all andbe-all solution of 4E: adding more monsters.

Looking at this Wyvern as a level 1 encounter is just counter-productive, no matter what the xp rules say... They work fine when you have about as many monsters as you do adventurers, but should not be relied upon blindly when you try to set up non-typical encounters.

4E really is weak on doing non-typical, after all.

 

[keterys]

Looking at this Wyvern as a level 1 encounter is just counter-productive, no matter what the xp rules say...

It's level 1 encounter, even if a pretty rotten one. You just need to change your proposed house rule to say what you actually want (ie, not 'encounter level', which is a defined term)

Average monster level? Maximum monster level?

For example, what is the difference between these two encounters, as faced by a level 2 party:
A) Level 10 creature alone
B) Level 10 creature with 10 level 1 minions

And do you want a level 3 party of five facing against four level 4 monsters (encounter level 3) to trigger this rule?

If so, do you care that you're effectively devaluing elite and solos, because they're going to rapidly pale in comparison to the equivalent xp in higher level creatures?