D&D 5E Adding Skills to Saves

[KarinsDad]

It's not really gaming the system if the assumption is that most saves will have proficiency.

What it does instead is encourage a cinematic style of play.

If you say so.

I think it encourages players trying to come up with imaginative ways to get a +2 to +6 bonus where the rules do not allow it. +2 to +6 is huge.

I'd rather players take the Resilience feat or the Lucky feat or try to acquire Inspiration or quest for items to help with their saves as opposed to modifying the rules.

At higher level, doing this is like handing out a bunch of free Inspirations (possibly per day depending on who they fight), regardless of how the players roleplay.

On top of that, it can become a pita for the DM when every player thinks that s/he can just dive behind furniture in order to get a save bonus on Fireballs or other Dex based attacks, etc. Once Pandora's Box is opened, it changes player's expectations.

Before throwing in this powerful of a house rule, you should probably play the game into the mid to higher levels first to see if you are solving a problem, or creating one.

 

[Dausuul]

Just seems like a way to game the system. I'd recommend against it.

I don't think I'd declare it as a formal rule, just use it as a personal guideline for when a player wants to do something clever in order to weasel out of taking his or her rightful share of damage. I generally try to reward clever ideas at the table--it keeps the players engaged and makes things more fun. If you don't have a clever idea, you just roll your saving throw like normal.

The more I think about it, the more I think "Use your reaction" is a phrase my players are going to hear a lot.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't think I'd declare it as a formal rule, just use it as a personal guideline for when a player wants to do something clever in order to weasel out of taking his or her rightful share of damage. I generally try to reward clever ideas at the table--it keeps the players engaged and makes things more fun.

The more I think about it, the more I think "Use your reaction" is a phrase my players are going to hear a lot.

Yeah, you are right. No need for anyone to cast a Bless spell when the DM will hand out half of it for free most of the time for most players. What was WotC thinking with not adding proficiency for most saves for everyone and putting in spells like Bless and Resistance, and game mechanics like Inspiration?

 

[Rune]

My thought is simply this - if you add your skill, it is no longer a save, it is a skill check.

Which you can do. There now is no such thing as a save - everything is a skill check. But it will create a notable disparity between have and have-nots, possibly pushing some skills that are likely to be overused in save scenarios (like, say, Acrobatics) into a "must-have" category.

Yeah. That's pretty much the conclusion I came to when I did something like this in 4e. And a modified basic.

Now I am a "don't fix it if it ain't broke" kind of person. So, I come to asking - what is mechanically broken that it calls for this mechanical change?

Why, nothing (in my opinion, at least; I have seen some complaints about the higher level gap between non-proficient saves and spell DCs). It's a flavor change, not a mechanics fix.

 

[Rune]

If you say so.

I think it encourages players trying to come up with imaginative ways to get a +2 to +6 bonus where the rules do not allow it. +2 to +6 is huge.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I'd rather players take the Resilience feat or the Lucky feat or try to acquire Inspiration or quest for items to help with their saves as opposed to modifying the rules.

These things are not mutually exclusive.

At higher level, doing this is like handing out a bunch of free Inspirations (possibly per day depending on who they fight), regardless of how the players roleplay.

Since you mention it, I also plan on being generous with Inspiration.

On top of that, it can become a pita for the DM when every player thinks that s/he can just dive behind furniture in order to get a save bonus on Fireballs or other Dex based attacks, etc. Once Pandora's Box is opened, it changes player's expectations.

Which is exactly the point.

Yeah, you are right. No need for anyone to cast a Bless spell when the DM will hand out half of it for free most of the time for most players. What was WotC thinking with not adding proficiency for most saves for everyone and putting in spells like Bless and Resistance, and game mechanics like Inspiration?

Again, these things are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Rune]

Also, requiring the use of a reaction (great suggestion, Dausuul) makes it a lot harder to spam (for those who are concerned about it).

 

[transtemporal]

Like, for example, using athletics to help resist a push, or medicine to resist poison.

Using strength to resist a push is already factored into the Strength saving throw. Adding Athletics potentially doubles the saving throw. Same with medicine. I don't think this is a good idea.

 

[Li Shenron]

Like, for example, using athletics to help resist a push, or medicine to resist poison.

Are you going to make the skill proficiency stack with the saving throw proficiency? Or is this idea meant to help only those who don't already have the saving throw proficiency?

In the first case, the consequence is clearly that the PC will be much more resistant to spells and a lot of other effects, especially at high levels. You need to decide if you're ok with this.

In the second case, i.e. a PC can apply a skill proficiency bonus to a saving throw they are not proficient in, the consequences are lesser. But you do need to watch out for some skills that may dominate, such as the mentioned Acrobatics.

Using strength to resist a push is already factored into the Strength saving throw. Adding Athletics potentially doubles the saving throw. Same with medicine. I don't think this is a good idea.

It has to be noted that the final version of 5e has effectively replaced Strength, Intelligence and Charisma saving throws with ability checks. You already roll an Investigation check against many illusions for example. So [MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION] is not completely off with his idea.

 

[Rune]

Are you going to make the skill proficiency stack with the saving throw proficiency? Or is this idea meant to help only those who don't already have the saving throw proficiency?

No, they wouldn't stack.

 

[Rune]

Using strength to resist a push is already factored into the Strength saving throw. Adding Athletics potentially doubles the saving throw. Same with medicine. I don't think this is a good idea.

The numbers would be no higher than any other proficient saving throw (until you factor in expertise, that is).