Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[CovertOps]

Oh my... I just realized that the terminology used on Holy Ardor is not ambiguous as i thought.

"Ardent Champion: "Holy Ardor (11th level): Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll, except if both rolls are 1.""

"Natural 20: If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense. If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically"

The language is very specific around the phrase "score a critical hit."

It looks to me like "score a critical hit" can only mean one thing - you have actually scored one, and get to do the critical damage. This means the omission of the word "can" in Holy Ardor is very, very significant. Of course it could be a simple oversight or typo, but, as written, it is a more specific rule than "Precision" and overrides it.

A search in the Rules Compendium for "score a critical hit" gives interesting results. Here's a few:

A high crit weapon deals more damage when you score a critical hit with it....

Aberrant Bane (11th level): Your attacks against bloodied aberrant creatures can score critical hits on rolls of 19–20.

Holy Ardor (11th level): Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll, except if both rolls are 1.

Lethal Action (11th level): If you spend an action point to make an attack against your oath of enmity target, the attack can score a critical hit on a roll of 18–20.

Wild Push (16th level): Whenever you score a critical hit with a melee attack while you are raging, you push the target a number of squares equal to your Strength modifier.

Dominating Presence (16th level): Whenever you score a critical hit, your allies gain a +2 bonus...

Volley Fire (16th level): If you score a critical hit with a ranged bard attack power...

Deeds not Words (16th level): When you bloody an enemy, reduce an enemy to 0 hit points, or score a critical hit with a melee attack...

Illuminating Attacks (11th level): Your powers that have the radiant keyword can now score a critical hit with a natural die roll of 19 or 20.

I am really starting to think that the basis of all our disagreements is a lack of understanding about how exception based design works or a least a disagreement about how it works.

Example:

Power X:
Hit: You do d8 + Wisdom modifier fire damage.

Resistance: You subtract your resistance value from any damage you take of that type.

I hope we can agree that a target with fire resistance will take less damage than d8 + Wis mod. There was nothing in this power that says you can OR can't ignore the general rule so it stands in tact.

Example:

Stealth: If you move more than half your movement you take a -10 to your stealth roll.

Rogue utility: Fleet Feet?
Effect: You can move your full move with no penality to your stealth roll.

In this case the power specifically says what you can do and how it overrides the general rule.

Nowhere in Holy Ardor does it say that it ignores Precision nor does it give new rules text to use in place of precision. It also does not say anything about replacing the auto-hit rules (only on a 20).

Exception based design means that you can't go look at what other powers do to determine how some other power works. Each power stands on it's own and either follows the general rules or provides a specific way in which the power lets you ignore the general rules.


1. Effect: You slide 3 squares.
2. Effect: You can slide 3 squares.

Rule: You cannot slide if you are prone.

Tell me Artoomis. Would you make a case for these 2 powers to act differently? Because the way I see it that's exactly what you are trying to do with Holy Ardor. Does the absence of the word "can" suddenly allow you to ignore the prone restriction? Does it's inclusion "allow" the general rule to apply?

 

[nogray]

"score a critical hit."

You left one out. I'm sure others would point this out, soon, anyway, but here's another use of the phrase:

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

Note that it also uses the definite "score a critical hit" language, even though it goes on to mention that when you "score a critical hit," you might not actually hit anything.

I'm personally still undecided as to which side of the argument I'm on, but I'm leaning against the "autohit-and-crit" side, because the power would otherwise allow hits 14.25% of the time, no matter how high the defenses of the target. (Ridiculous example, +20 to hit vs. defense score of 80: just about everyone else hits 5% of the time (no crits possibe), normal avengers hit 9.75% of the time (no crits possible), and--under the more liberal interpretation of the rules--Ardent Champions would hit 14.25% of the time and crit 4.75% of the time.

I'm not saying it's broken, but it seems peculiar, to say the least, that Ardent Champions can hit so much more reliably and crit what no one else can.

Just something more to think about in this crazy head of mine...

(And I need to type faster or type more succinctly.)

 

[Artoomis]

...Tell me Artoomis. Would you make a case for these 2 powers to act differently? Because the way I see it that's exactly what you are trying to do with Holy Ardor. Does the absence of the word "can" suddenly allow you to ignore the prone restriction? Does it's inclusion "allow" the general rule to apply?

The lack of the word "can it very important, but, truly, even more important is the new mechanic of rolling doubles.

This is, arguably, not the same as when one uses the result of a single die (or highest roll, which is the same thing, really).

Thus one can argue that the new rule, Holy Ardor, creates an entirely new exception to the rules.

It's a bit odd, but adding in all the evidence together supports that Holy Ardor is a new rule that creates a new exception.

Thinks of it this way.

Rule one: You can only auto-hit on a 20.
Rule two: Rolling doubles on two d20 means you automatically get a critical hit.

Now, does rule two create a new situation that overrides rule one?

 

[DracoSuave]

Rule one: You can only auto-hit on a 20.
Rule two: Rolling doubles on two d20 means you automatically get a critical hit.

Now, does rule two create a new situation that overrides rule one?

It would.

Notice, however, that Holy Ardor does not say, nor even imply, that the hit is automatic.

It just says you score a critical hit, and -that- is fully governed by Precision.

 

[Artoomis]

It would.

Notice, however, that Holy Ardor does not say, nor even imply, that the hit is automatic.

It just says you score a critical hit, and -that- is fully governed by Precision.

Well, maybe, maybe not.

Let's review that very point, because it is pretty core to our discussion:

The rules, in there entirety, on when you "score a critical hit" are:

Natural 20: If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense. If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically.

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

Note that precision states (its only a reminder, really) you only score an automatic hit on a 20 on the d20.

That's true. But what about when some odd new rule gets created that lets you "score a critical hit" with doubles on two d20. Does the "20 on an attack roll" rule apply any more?

Well, maybe, maybe not.

The "doubles" have nothing to do with whether you hit or not, just whether you get the same result on both die.

So what do we have?

1. If you roll a natural 20 on a d20, you get an automatic hit that may or may not score a critical hit.

2. You may be allowed by some power to score a critical hit on a number other than 20 - in other words, you might need only a 19, or an 18, but the rule on needing to hit before you can score a critical hit still applies.

3. With Holy Ardor a new situation is created - rolling doubles.

What we do not know for sure is if the doubles are simply another way to possibly score a critical hit, or are something else - a way to get an automatic critical hit regardless of whether you would have otherwise hit your target.

Can we agree on that much (note I have not drawn a conclusion yet in this post, only presented the question).

If we can agree on this much, then we have the basis for tackling the core question(s) we need.

 

[DracoSuave]

3. With Holy Ardor a new situation is created - rolling doubles.

And at this point, we check to see if this is a situation where you are allowed to roll a critical hit on numbers other than 20.

Here's the bruteforce method of checking.

If you roll a 1? No. Holy Ardor says you can't, we won't consider this anyways.

Two 2's? This is doubles, and it is an attack roll that is a number other than 20. (that number is defined by oath of emnity, and it is 2)
Two 3's? Other than 20. 4's? Other than 20. 5's? Other than 20. 6's? 7's? 8's? 9's? 10's? 11's? 12's? 13's? 14's? 15's? 16's? 17's? 18's? 19's? All are other than 20.

So, in this, we have found 18 cases where this Holy Ardor could allow you to score a critical hit on numbers other than 20.

So, in those 18 cases, Precision would apply. In any other case it would not. Of course, that case is a natural 20, and would be a crit without Holy Ardor.

 

[Artoomis]

And at this point, we check to see if this is a situation where you are allowed to roll a critical hit on numbers other than 20.

Here's the bruteforce method of checking.

If you roll a 1? No. Holy Ardor says you can't, we won't consider this anyways.

Two 2's? This is doubles, and it is an attack roll that is a number other than 20. (that number is defined by oath of emnity, and it is 2)
Two 3's? Other than 20. 4's? Other than 20. 5's? Other than 20. 6's? 7's? 8's? 9's? 10's? 11's? 12's? 13's? 14's? 15's? 16's? 17's? 18's? 19's? All are other than 20.

So, in this, we have found 18 cases where this Holy Ardor could allow you to score a critical hit on numbers other than 20.

So, in those 18 cases, Precision would apply. In any other case it would not. Of course, that case is a natural 20, and would be a crit without Holy Ardor.

I think we are now focusing on the right issue.

When rolling two 2s what have you got?

1. Two attack rolls, neither of which hit.
2. Doubles, which Holy Ardor says "score a critical hit."

So now what?

Either "score as critical hit" means what it says and you get to score a critical hit (which means also, in effect, a brand-new mechanism for an automatic hit) or it really means you have the possibility of scoring a critical hit, even though that;s not what is actually says.

I think both interpretations are correct in that they can be defended by RAW.

 

[DracoSuave]

Either "score as critical hit" means what it says and you get to score a critical hit (which means also, in effect, a brand-new mechanism for an automatic hit) or it really means you have the possibility of scoring a critical hit, even though that;s not what is actually says.

I think both interpretations are correct in that they can be defended by RAW.

The problem with that is both interpretations are covered by Precision, which as a governing rule isn't concerned with possibilities, but is a flat out denial of possibility, by the same token that a condition that denies you actions doesn't allow you to take actions even if other effects do.

So, you can have a million effects that say you do something, but it only takes one effect to say you can't to deny all of them. The exception, of course, is when those abilities say you can do something -even tho- you normally can't.

Holy Ardor is not an example of that.

 

[Flipguarder]

Either "score as critical hit" means what it says and you get to score a critical hit (which means also, in effect, a brand-new mechanism for an automatic hit)

There is only one mechanic for an automatic hit, rolling a 20. There is no room for interpretation in that, I don't care how many 2s you roll. Just because you ALSO get a critical hit on a 20 does in no way mean that any critical hit is an automatic hit.

I (rolling a 20) eat apples (automatic hit)
I (rolling a 20) ride bikes (critical hit)
You (holy ardor rolling two 2s) ride bikes (critical hit)

This does not in any way mean that you eat apples. I am the only one who gets to eat apples, end of discussion. But you can ride bikes all you want. I don't care about that.

 

[DracoSuave]

So now what?

You hope there's a rule that exists to cover situations where you would score a critical hit but not actually roll high enough to hit, while still not rolling a 20.

Fortunately, that rule exists.

So use it.