Adult: GUCK Development Forum again

Possible feats for inclusion (Monstrous Races)

Lily Inverse here! I've been absent for awhile, but life's been kinda busy.

I'm not quite sure where these would go (or even what to call them) but they're basically feats to give those 'critters' with a sexual bent more power in that department once character levels start being added.



Feat 1 (Monstrous)
Prerequisite: Cha 15+

Many monsters are guised with appearances pleasing to humanoids, while others are able to use natural processes to overcome their normal inclinations. Some take this ability further. Whether through pheromonal control or inherent magic, you are able to seduce members of humanoid races with ease.

Benefit: Humanoids in your presence for more than one turn are automatically aroused. This feat does not function if those who would be affected are engaged in hostilities of any sort, but operates regardless of whether or not they are aware of your presence. Furthermore, you gain a +1 bonus to all sexual prowess checks you make towards those affected by this feat, and they treat you as if of compatible sexual alignment.

Feat 2 (Monstrous)
Prerequisites: Feat 1, Cha 19+
 

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Lily Inverse here! I've been absent for awhile, but life's been kinda busy.

Hi Lily! :) I remember you from the old thread back when I was just a lurker. ;) Welcome back to the boards and the new discussions.
 

Great job with the Java script, VVrayven -- that's an excellent tool for fine-tuning our DC tables.

If memory serves me correctly, the NUCK incorporated a rule in which the states Aroused and Peaked remained in effect as long as there was any continued stimulation at all, and for a number of rounds after stimulation was cut off. That seemed reasonable to me, and the DC table should reflect a similar mechanic so that we avoid the odd phenomenon of male characters routinely going limp in the middle of intercourse. Perhaps the DC table should read something like:

Current \ Target None Aroused Peaked Climaxed Ecstatic
None <13/<16 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused <1/<5 1/5 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked <1/<5 1/5 8/10 16/20 32/40

I realize that this messes up the mnemonically advantageous "double each DC value to get the next higher one" system, but I'll gladly sacrifice that bit of elegance to avoid the problem you discovered.

Responses to some of your numbered points:

7) I'd say that a character should not lose their normal Prowess check simply because they are making the free action Prowess check of a passive recipient.

10) Agreed, different techniques have different levels of effectiveness on males and females. Only the hesitancy to proliferate DC modifiers keeps me from enthusiastically calling for separate male/female values. As it is, I'm still undecided.

11) I'm no 3E expert, but I thought the "-10 HP = death" rule applied only to normal damage, not subdual damage. The character who sustains massive amounts of subdual damage is merely unconscious, even at -10.

'Tis all for now...
 

Heya. Couple more things for the board, gosh I've posted a lot. ;) Where are you DbS! <readies a tickle>

First off, I think we should have the True Love feat grant a bonus to Prowess checks, after all, if you love them, they try harder and you are eaiser to arouse.

Second, how would you all feel about making a sidebar: Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder... It would consists of having a partner's charisma score be slightly variable depending on your feelings toward them. For instance two people in love might treat each other as having +2 or +4 charisma? What do you think?

Third. I tweaked my java system so that the AI routine works alot more realisticly. However, before I get into that, I'd like to address our gratification issue. First, we make a convention for a better orgasm to grant a higher gratification, so I find it a little odd that Estacy grants only a 1 gratification and is very difficult to grant it more... In addition, if you happen to make your partner climax twice in a row, the second one will grant less gratification on average due to the high DC required... So I propose the following change:

"When a character becomes Climaxed or Ecstastic, they receive a gratification point plus an additional point for every 5 points by which the test exceeds the base climax DC, rounded down to a minimum of 1. Keep a tally of this for each partner and consult the Gratification table at the end of proceedings.

Examples:

Female is peaked, partner makes DC 26 (target DC 20), the gratificiation is 2 (1 + 6/5 round down).

Female is climaxed, partner makes a DC 41 (target DC 40 base 20), the gratification is 5 (1 + 21/5 round down).

Female is peaked, partner makes a DC 46 (target DC 40 for estacy, base 20), the gratification is 6 (1 + 26/5).

What do you think? In either case, the Gratification table for Hard Focus needs to be reworked, and I'll explain why later.

As for my new program results:

The two partners now foreplay each other until they are both Aroused. If one partner is aroused and the other is not, they both try to arouse the one which is not. After this, intercourse begins. The DC table has been modified so that once aroused, a male cannot loose Arousal. They remain at intercourse, even if the female drops to no Arousal. (all the penalties are in there). This continues until the girl passes out or the male experiences his first climax.

Using the standard just go, no resist method:
Intercourse Time: 12 rounds, Avg Female Orgasm: 0.05, Female Climax Chance: 2.7%

If male resists after he is aroused, and the female tried to please herself and just reflexively tried her partner:
Intercourse Time: 8 rounds, Avg Female Orgasm: 0.33, Female Climax Chance: 16.2%

So, women are pretty much just out of luck... :( But then again, I guess it was so for a long time...

However, if you give one rank of prowess and a +1 Fort Save...
Intercourse Time: 9 rounds, Avg Female Orgasm: 0.87, Female Climax Chance: 37.2%
two ranks of prowess and a +1 Fort Save...
Intercourse Time: 9 rounds, Avg Female Orgasm: 1.38, Female Climax Chance: 56.8%
three ranks of prowess and a +1 Fort Save...
Intercourse Time: 9 rounds, Avg Female Orgasm: 1.93, Female Climax Chance: 68.5%

in the above rank is synonimis with total prowess bonus...
 

Let's take a look at our Gratification Table:

Table X-XX: Gratification Table:
Soft Focus / Hard Focus / Performance
<10 / <1 / Disappointing
10 / 1 / Satisfactory
15 / 2 / Enjoyable
20 / 5 / Memorable
30 / 10 / Fantastic
40 / 15 / Extraordinary
50 / 20 / Heavenly
60 / 25 / Rapturous

This table implies that it is easier to accomplish higher values through Hard Focus rather than soft focus. Why is this so? Well, to get a DC 60 you need a +40 to prowess or a lot of modifiers. In any case, if you use this +40 in Hard Focus you can quiet easily build a partner up to peak and then get an average 5-6 gratification climax from them. And with that +40, you can get 5 orgasms easy. However, using Soft Focus, you would have to roll a natural 20.

Now, I don't have a problem with this. I think Hard Focus should be the method to attain awesome results... But, assuming the common woman can withstand 14 climaxs... (let's say 13 just for fun). That means a common women can get 13 gratification level 2 orgasms and then be three steps jumped on the social table. What's a level 2 orgasm take? DC 25 repeatatly. A good CHA rogue with a +15 modifier can pull this off easiliy. That's about a 7th level rogue. Is this what we want?

What does everyone think?

Edit: And I forgot one other thing... After prowess bonuses reach the +10 to +15 stage, the Fort save isn't likely to stop them ever... Is this a problem?
 
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Wow... Still quiet... Well, I had a late night breakthrough!

I figured out a great way to do multiple prowess checks against a single target!

First off, I thought, okay, everybody just goes on their initiative pass, and each check is resolved as it's own entity. The pleasurie's status just builds with each one. But this doesn't make much sense. I think we are streching things enough with the 6-second FULL ROUND action. Three people shouldn't be able to to three or more status increases in six seconds just because they work together. So, individual passes is out.

Next I thought, okay, why not just take the highest arousal increase for the round? Well then that kind of cuts out the other people that are involved. I mean, they are all helping right?

So I came up with this:

Multiple Prowess Checks used on Single Target
Prowess checks are a full round action, thus all of them are resolved for a single target all at once. Each prowess check is rolled off the target's current state of arousal and physical condition. The highest successful arousal increase is used as the base roll. If another participant succeeds the DC neccessary to raise the target's arousal, the base roll recieves a +2 synergy bonus. If a participant simply hits the current arosual state DC there is no modifier. If the participant only can hit an arousal DC lower than the current state, then the base roll suffers a -2 circumstance penalty.

Example: Girl A is pleasuring herself (masturbation) while her partner (Guy B) has intercourse with her (she is only passively using her prowess on him, thus gains the full bonus to her own check and no multiple partner penalty). Both of them are aroused at the start of the round. Girl A has two prowess checks being using on her, (Guy B's and her own). Guy B gets a DC 21 (enough for the DC 20 to peak her) and Girl A gets a DC 19 (enough for the DC 18 to peak her). Guy Bs is the base roll (because it is higher) and it gets a +2 synergy bonus because of Girl A's success. So the final target DC is 20 and the check is a 23 (she is peaked). If instead, Guy B had his a DC 3, Girl A's check would have been the base and suffered a -2 penalty, thus the target DC for peak would be an 18 and the check a 17, and she would still only be aroused.

What do you think? I've toyed with the idea of hitting the even arousal state provided the +2 bonus? Opinions? Wrayven go bed now. ;) Night guys.
 

My goodness what a slew of contributions! A wonderful slew, might I add, but an awful lot to work through.

*dodges tickles*

Alright, I’ll start by addressing VVrayven’s Big Questions. Incidentally, the ‘Sexual Experience’ Art, or ‘Method of the Veteran’ as I would like to call it, is very good, although follows a significantly different style to the others (ie. Many low-key, low-prerequisite manoeuvres). What does everyone feel about this?

Anyways, in response to your queries, VVrayven,

1) I agree entirely.
2) Perhaps we should just leave it as ‘helpless’, as unless they make the save to be able to respond (almost) normally, that is precisely their situation.
3) So do I. Sorry, I was working from a somewhat antiquated version.
4) Some very good enquiries. Although I didn’t make it at all clear in the draft guide, I only listed Sodomy (receiving) as a proficiency for that exact reason – the person penetrating does not get to make a Prowess check, as there is no listed proficiency and it is not reciprocal.
DSM and Bondage do indeed need tweaking… I had some hazy thoughts around the idea of having those proficiencies for the acts solely relating to Bondage or DSM (such as humiliation/teasing/whatever), as where other checks are used in that context, a kink bonus applies instead (where appropriate).
5) Your late-night revelation (oh, the glories of concussive logic) sounds brilliant. When are Prowess checks worked out then? On the character’s initiative pass after their partner uses it on them (workable, but slightly awkward)?
6) Check.
7) Yes, that was my intention. If anyone could come up with a rewrite that makes this more clear, please do so. Alternatively, I could just insert a sentence stating that it is specifically so.
8) Great idea. An ‘atmosphere’ mod would be a really nice addition (although as this revolves around the physical aspect, mods would be slight).
9) Hmmm…. I have my own apprehensions as to the step mod as people may find it too cumbersome. I’ll come up with some modifiers in a moment, bear with me. What does everyone else think on the matter?
10) There does indeed seem to be gender bias. Now, although female stimulation is not actually much harder per se, it does tend to take more time than male stimulation. Hence, with people making progressive Prowess checks, it works out faster to stimulate a male than a female. If anyone thinks this mode of thinking is flawed, feel free to state so.
11) As Asher so correctly asserted, at –10 subdual HP, you do not die. In fact, subdual damage can just keep increasing and increasing, as its only profound effect is increasing the time before the character comes around.
12) Which one? Oh, right, add ‘smaller’ in there.
13) I’ll second that.
14) Hmmm… okay.

DrAltaica has quite a good idea on the alignment issue – it certainly clears up the rules awkwardness in *shudders* magical sex changes.

Countless adorations to VVrayven for dedicating the time and effort to coming up with a Java program to crunch our numbers – I didn’t want to spend long afternoons crunching dice, and this is a very glamorous alternative indeed.

Asher’s alternative table DCs (athough less stylish, bah) are a good fix to the ‘apparent ineptitude’ bug. I for one would reluctantly condone them.

Oh, and the ‘beauty in the eye of the beholder’ sidebar is a neat idea – I’m thinking along the lines of a +2 love bonus to Charisma in the eyes of a partner in love, or +4 if the partner has taken the True Love feat.

VVrayven, your ideas on issues of gratification are very much pertinent; I would adopt your rewriting of the gratification rules, and would a suggest a brief tweaking of the gratification table – perhaps knock out the ‘2’ step for Hard Focus, continuing as normal.

Although Hard Focus gratification seems much more profound, we do have to realise that getting a really high score is significantly hampered by Fatigue, and such an exhaustive session is likely to leave both characters somewhat, well, Exhausted. When Soft Focus is put up into a sidebar, we should insert a clause stating that both partners end up Fatigued, and a duration of congress based upon the check result (if interrupted or cut short, the result drops accordingly).

That covers the majority of everybody’s contributions, but I cannot take time enough to praise you all for the work you’ve done; indeed the main cause of delay (beyonds living requirements such as partying) has been working out a response to everything submitted. Please get back to me on the suitability of the suggestions posted above, add new content or with demonstrations of their application (in the case of Java Girl).

Cheers,

DbS

PS. Sorn/Kolvar, could you post the working mechanics up onto the site in a collected form (albeit without the modifications we've made)?
 

Glad to see you are still alive, DbS. <hugs> ;)

...sorry in advance for the poor formating. :(

I'm also thrilled that you like most of my ideas! I've been having such a great and lovely weekend I decided to hope online and add a bunch of follow ups. <giggles>

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"Method of the Veteran" is a fine name, I agree. And I left out that this "style" should probably be a charisma based one, since prowess is charisma based by default.

Helpless status condition is fine for the Delerious thing. ;)

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I believe penetrating sodomy "should" be a prof and should be reciprocal. This is because most of the act is pleasurable by the thrusting and not by the moving of the girl right? Or perhaps it is an art form to recieve, hence the need for the Prof. In any case, Should we have a penetrating sodomy, after all some people "DO" get off on that...

DSM and Bondage need to be removed as prof or altered, I'm glad you agree. No ideas as of yet. I'll but it on the list of discussion topics.

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Gender Bias...
Okay, I know the overall idea is that women take longer to stimulate than men... The point I was trying to make but bumbbled with, is that I think the reverse is true when we are talking about the caressing of non-sex organs. As is right now: To get a Man to climax by caressing his breasts (from peaked) is a DC 26. A peaked female needs a DC 30 to climax by caressing her breasts. In my experience, I've NEVER seen a man climax by caressing his breasts... But I HAVE had an orgasm from 'only' breast caresses. Yet, the DC for a male is still lower... This is where I see a gender bias issue. The individual profs might need to be tweaked, but the DC table is fine in my eyes. I guess in general, just as "TECHNIQUE SUITABILITY" modifies the DC by arousal state, i think it should also do it by gender in some cases.

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New subdual rules. Okay, cool! I guess I was remembering 2e. ;)

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Prowess Check & Multiple Partners --- New Workup ---

THE PROWESS CHECK
Performing a Prowess check on someone (including yourself) is a miscellaneous full-round action incurring attacks of opportunity. If an attack of oppurtunity hits you, the damage inflicted is coutned as a penalty to your prowess check. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Prowess checks can only be made against an Unwilling partner if they are grappled, helpless or immobile.

It is possible to make Prowess checks against more than one partner as the same full-round action; if your character wishes to do so, a penalty of -4 per additional partner is applied to all checks. You cannot make more simultaneous checks than (1+Dex bonus) at any time, unless otherwise stated.

Prowess checks are a full round action and thus all of them are resolved for a single target at the end of the round (they may each be rolled on initiative count, but their effect does not take place until the end of the entire round). Each prowess check is rolled off the target's current state of arousal and physical condition. The highest successful arousal increase is used as the base roll. If another participant succeeds the DC neccessary to raise the target's arousal, the base roll recieves a +2 synergy bonus. If a participant simply hits the current arosual state DC there is no modifier. If the participant only can hit an arousal DC lower than the current state, then the base roll suffers a -2 circumstance penalty.

Example: Girl A is pleasuring herself (masturbation) while her partner (Guy B) has intercourse with her (she is only passively using her prowess on him, thus gains the full bonus to her own check and no multiple partner penalty). Both of them are aroused at the start of the round. Girl A has two prowess checks being using on her, (Guy B's and her own). Guy B gets a DC 21 (enough for the DC 20 to peak her) and Girl A gets a DC 19 (enough for the DC 18 to peak her). Guy Bs is the base roll (because it is higher) and it gets a +2 synergy bonus because of Girl A's success. So the final target DC is 20 and the check is a 23 (she is peaked). If instead, Guy B had his a DC 3, Girl A's check would have been the base and suffered a -2 penalty, thus the target DC for peak would be an 18 and the check a 17, and she would still only be aroused.

When making a Prowess check, you may apply as much or as little of your rank bonus as you desire, but the declaration must be made BEFORE you make the roll. Consult the table below for DCs according to your partner’s present condition, where the numbers on the left represent a male partner, and the ones on the right a female one.

After the check is made, the partner’s Arousal is changed to fit the highest DC the character achieved. They may resist this change by rolling a Fortitude save against a DC equal to the character's Prowess check, adding an Unwilling bonus where applicable. If successful, they remain in their current state and no additional arousal is gained.

Table X-XX: Arousal DCs
Current \ Target None Aroused Peaked Climaxed Ecstatic
None <13/<16 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused <1/<5 1/5 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked <1/<5 1/5 8/10 16/20 32/40

It is possible to keep a partner in Climax or Ecstasy for more than one round, although this may result in adverse effects (see Status Conditions for more details). In order to do so, use the DCs listed for a Peaked character, but double it for each round spent in Climax or Ecstasy. Thus, a Peaked male character would be DC 16 to raise to Climaxed initially, DC32 the round after that, DC 48 on the third round and so on. If the DC for Climaxed is not sustained, male characters lose all arousal; female characters reside to Aroused instead.

However, after the first round spent in Climax or Ecstasy, each further round spent in Climax does one point of temporary Wisdom damage; each round spent Ecstatic does 1d3 points of temporary Wisdom damage.

When a partner is using a Penetrative technique against them, characters always make a Prowess check back, if only by virtue of just lying there. In the round in which the check is made against them, they must make a Prowess check back on their initiative pass. If they do not add their rank bonus to this, it is considered a free action and does not impose any penalties against any other checks they may wish to make.

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New Gratification Issues:

Okay, I like the new way of doing gratification, which I will outline below. But now we have one more small problem. In a average encounter, a man climaxes once... That means 1 gratification point MAYBE more... Meanwhile a female can go much higher, much faster, assuming the encounter is going well. This means that while a girl's emotions will always be twisted up by sex as she climbs the Hard Focus chart to Memorable and Fantastic, the guy will always be stuck with statisfying and will never be altered. Now, I don't have a problem with "girls" being more suspetable to "attachment syndrome", but I do think this method is a little skewed as is and the poor guy can never get rapturous sex... :( I mean even a CON 16, can only take 5 orgasms before passing out, if that, and that session is going to take around an hour, most of it with rest time from the 10 min recovery period. My solution, men should probably aquire gratification faster... Suggestions?

But the new system stands as:

Hard Focus rules:
To devote more attention to a given lovemaking session, work things out round by round using the Prowess check mechanics, as explained in ‘The Prowess Check’. When a character becomes Climaxed or Ecstastic, they receive a gratification point plus an additional point for every 5 points by which the test exceeds the base climax DC (modified by circumstance but not arousal state), rounded down to a minimum of 1. Keep a tally of this for each partner and consult the Gratification table at the end of proceedings.

Examples:

Female is peaked, partner makes DC 26 (target DC 20), the gratificiation is 2 (1 + 6/5 round down).

Female is climaxed, partner makes a DC 41 (target DC 40 base 20), the gratification is 5 (1 + 21/5 round down).

Female is peaked, partner makes a DC 46 (target DC 40 for estacy, base 20), the gratification is 6 (1 + 26/5).

Female is peaked and exhausted, partner makes a DC 46 (target DC 46 for estacy, base 26), the gratification is 5 (1 + 20/5).

Table X-XX: Gratification Table:
Soft Focus / Hard Focus / Performance
<10 / <1 / Disappointing
10 / 1 / Satisfactory
15 / 5 / Enjoyable
20 / 10 / Memorable
30 / 15 / Fantastic
40 / 20 / Extraordinary
50 / 25 / Heavenly
60 / 30 / Rapturous

effects as normal, etc...

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Resisting Prowess Rolls:

Saves are left in the dust by skill checks. A 10th level character can get a good +16 to prowess with some work. Fort saves aren't liekly to be anywhere near this... Is this a problem? After +15 and higher, it becomes unlikely that a prowess roll will ever be resisted...

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Okay, so the new arousal table is as follows:
Current \ Target None Aroused Peaked Climaxed Ecstatic
None <13/<16 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused <1/<5 1/5 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked <1/<5 1/5 8/10 16/20 32/40

Not mathimatically pretty, but it works. ;)

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New Issue: Shouldn't being exhausted make your rolls suffer? Or is it just harder to stimulate you? Personally I think it should lower your ability a little and make it harder to stimulate you, if people think this is too complex, that's okay...

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And now for some more Java Girl... <blush>

I made a slight boo boo in my calcs... But these should work for the new numbers... All of these assume the AI where the female helps herself first and the male second and that the male resists climaxing and peaking...

Avgerage Commoner (+0 Prow, +0 Fort, 10 Con)
Avg Intercourse: 8 rounds, Avg F Orgasms: 0.171, F Climax Chance 17.1%, Avg F Grat: 0.17

(+1 Prow, +1 Fort, 10 Con)
Avg Intercourse: 9 rounds, Avg F Orgasms: 0.383, F Climax Chance 38.3%, Avg F Grat: 0.38

(+2 Prow, +1 Fort, 10 Con)
Avg Intercourse: 9 rounds, Avg F Orgasms: 0.655, F Climax Chance 55.7%, Avg F Grat: 0.66

(+3 Prow, +1 Fort, 10 Con)
Avg Intercourse: 9 rounds, Avg F Orgasms: 1.011, F Climax Chance 68.5%, Avg F Grat: 1.01

(+5 Prow, +2 Fort, 10 Con)
Avg Intercourse: 10 rounds, Avg F Orgasms: 1.89, F Climax Chance 85.3%, Avg F Grat: 2.01

(+10 Prow, +3 Fort, 12 Con)
Avg Intercourse: 9 rounds, Avg F Orgasms: 3.63, F Climax Chance 87.4%, Avg F Grat: 4.74

(+15 Prow, +6 Fort, 14 Con)
Avg Intercourse: 10 rounds, Avg F Orgasms: 5.23, F Climax Chance 84.0%, Avg F Grat: 9.79

These are just some averages... But they seem to work well. I'm going to make a new AI for experienced players that allows the woman to hold of for better gratification and see what we come up with.

So that is about it for me right now. :)

Here are the open issues:
1. Reciprocal Sodomy?
2. DSM & Bondage as Profs?
3. Clothing Rules?
4. Higher Gratification Rate for Men?
5. Prowess outstripping saves, problem or not?
6. Multiple Prowess success add +2 syngery for equal ot +1 state only?

Take care all. <smiles all around> ;)
 

Wotcher,

Apologies once again for the lateness of reply – (insert witty excuse of your choosing here). To address VVrayven’s pertinent questions and wonderful additions:

1) From what I gather, most satisfaction in sodomy is to the penetrator – hence receiving is the only proficiency, as it is used by the recipient against the penetrator.We could allow a penetration prof, as satisfaction is possible, it is difficult (cue penalties).
2) Erm… ahh… I’ll get back to you on this one.
3) I’d suggest that most proficiencies be impossible whilst in clothing. Caressing would be possible but with a penalty of –2 to –6 based on thickness of clothing (impossible on opponents wearing armour). Some rules for time spent removing clothing, or unbuckling essential areas, would be appreciated from the team at large. Perhaps 3e armour style: Don, Remove, Remove Hastily (:D).
4) You’ve somewhat omitted any calculations featuring satisfaction for men. Whilst they cannot sustain quite so many Climaxed states, their DC is significantly lower, hence each orgasm gives more satisfaction tha a woman, given identical rolls. I (roughly) assume this works out to be pretty much on a level with women.
5) My personal opinion on the matter is that it is fine – 3e features an eventual shift of balance from defence winning to offence winning as levels progress (to offset higher hit points somewhat), and this is only kept in accordance. However, if anyone has complaints or would like to suggest an alternative system, fire away.
6) Hmmm… +2. And the system, may I add, is absolutely fantastic. I couldn’t have managed anything near as good myself.

To address your other point, we will, of course, require a little good sense where DMs are concerned – Caress (breasts) will have little effect on a male partner, if any. A brief note asking DMs to exercise a little sensibility would not go amiss where proficiencies are concerned. Anyways, enough from the answer guy for now – I’m off to type up a few notes on kinks.

Cheers,

DbS
 

I'm still keeping up with the discussion, but don't have anything useful to add at this point. Just wanted to report that I haven't dropped off the face of the planet. :)
 

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