Adult: GUCK Development Forum again
- Thread starter Death By Surfeit
- Start date
Death By Surfeit
First Post
Kahuna: We do effectively run a ‘proficiency’ mechanism, but not to the degree of complexity you mentioned: anyone can attempt any technique, but ranks in Prowess allow you to apply your Prowess bonus to increasing numbers of areas (hence the ‘Perform-esque’ label). We could indeed go for a more complex system, but it would probably hinder rather than help - we want the GUCK to be a simple extension of D&D rules, not a separate system!
With regards the suitability/unsuitability for given Prowess techniques, this is covered by the technique penalties (see circumstantial modifiers) but essentially left to DM’s judgement - thus a penalty can be applied if trying to get someone Aroused by full congress, or getting someone to Climax with dirty talk.
Oh, and we can resolve the whole Unwilling issue by using our original rules text, but with the addition of words under ‘A Very Social Art’ to the effect of ‘attempting intercourse with an Unwilling or Disinterested partner is considered a Hostile or Unfriendly act respectively; make no positive attitude changes in these circumstances’. Much easier this way!
There is a small issue as to whether Unwilling/Disinterested are ‘non-universal’ conditions: can someone be treated as Disinterested towards someone but not toward someone else (the ‘off-putting’ factor)? Thoughts, anyone?
VVrayven: no need to feel so put down - your compilation is useful indeed, I simply wanted to resolve some conceptual issues before I made my own contributions! I’m glad that there’s some degree of unity over the form that Carnal Arts take, and I will shortly be posting my work on them so far.
Simply put, there is one dependant on each ability score, allowing a certain number of applications each day before incurring Sexual Fatigue. Names are yet to be finalised, but they run along the following lines:
Techniques of Carnal Power (Str) - Power & effect
Tricks of the Trade (Dex) - Deftness & subtlety
Art of the Halfling Harlot (Con) - Resilience & willpower
Stunts of the Improviso (Int) - Adaptability & improvisation
Lore of the Tantric Ancients (Wis) - Self-control & spirituality
Forms of Immaculate Beauty (Cha) - Desirability & sensuality
If anyone has any comments, suggestions or topics they want to bring up, do so! As ever, your contributions are essential to the Guide’s development - we can’t do this without you!
Death By Surfeit
With regards the suitability/unsuitability for given Prowess techniques, this is covered by the technique penalties (see circumstantial modifiers) but essentially left to DM’s judgement - thus a penalty can be applied if trying to get someone Aroused by full congress, or getting someone to Climax with dirty talk.
Oh, and we can resolve the whole Unwilling issue by using our original rules text, but with the addition of words under ‘A Very Social Art’ to the effect of ‘attempting intercourse with an Unwilling or Disinterested partner is considered a Hostile or Unfriendly act respectively; make no positive attitude changes in these circumstances’. Much easier this way!
There is a small issue as to whether Unwilling/Disinterested are ‘non-universal’ conditions: can someone be treated as Disinterested towards someone but not toward someone else (the ‘off-putting’ factor)? Thoughts, anyone?
VVrayven: no need to feel so put down - your compilation is useful indeed, I simply wanted to resolve some conceptual issues before I made my own contributions! I’m glad that there’s some degree of unity over the form that Carnal Arts take, and I will shortly be posting my work on them so far.
Simply put, there is one dependant on each ability score, allowing a certain number of applications each day before incurring Sexual Fatigue. Names are yet to be finalised, but they run along the following lines:
Techniques of Carnal Power (Str) - Power & effect
Tricks of the Trade (Dex) - Deftness & subtlety
Art of the Halfling Harlot (Con) - Resilience & willpower
Stunts of the Improviso (Int) - Adaptability & improvisation
Lore of the Tantric Ancients (Wis) - Self-control & spirituality
Forms of Immaculate Beauty (Cha) - Desirability & sensuality
If anyone has any comments, suggestions or topics they want to bring up, do so! As ever, your contributions are essential to the Guide’s development - we can’t do this without you!
Death By Surfeit
Gez
First Post
I just want to reminds something about feats: a feat is something that is impossible to do without said feat (unless the feat is merely a bonus, like Iron Will or Weapon Focus). They should be kept for arts that, even with training, most people will never be able to practice. That's why I'm a bit reluctant to keying everything to feats, especially new special-purpose feats rather than broad, general feats.
In other words, what do you thought of my proposition for the halfling harlot ?
In other words, what do you thought of my proposition for the halfling harlot ?
Death By Surfeit
First Post
Uhm...
I thought that the point of Carnal Arts would be that they were special techniques that only the sufficiently skilled (ie. possessed of Prowess/feats combo) people could attempt. Whatever else you wished to do, and what was available to the masses, would be accomodated in the core mechanics (which are very loosely interpreted anyhow); however, there seems to be some indecision on this point - would anyone like to clarify the area?
If not, taking sides will do for now...
Death By Surfeit
I thought that the point of Carnal Arts would be that they were special techniques that only the sufficiently skilled (ie. possessed of Prowess/feats combo) people could attempt. Whatever else you wished to do, and what was available to the masses, would be accomodated in the core mechanics (which are very loosely interpreted anyhow); however, there seems to be some indecision on this point - would anyone like to clarify the area?
If not, taking sides will do for now...
Death By Surfeit
Gez
First Post
Death By Surfeit said:
Yes.
We're just slightly disagreeing over the minimum amount of skill required. I think some of the marital arts (sorry, I can't resist bad puns) just would not deserve a dedicated feat; and also that some existing skill synergies or general feats may be ad hoc prerequisites.
If we look at the martial arts in OA, they have several prerequisites, but none of them is a "for prerequisite only" feat, all have their own effects. That's why I'm stylistically opposed on feats whose only purpose would be to unlock access to carnal arts. If we have to stray from core mechanics (and we have too, it would not be possible otherwise IMO), we should rather stray in the same direction as already existing additional material.
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Oh boy... Wow... I missed a lot. I didn't get my usual reminder emails that new posts had been added, and work has kept me busy enough where I didn't have time to just hop over here and browse around.
In any case... a few comments from me...
The NC stuff looks pretty good. (Ok, this sounds wrong). Let me rephrase... the NC mechanics seem sound. There... better. One addition though: since rape is universally considered evil, how about we add an alignment descriptor to the NC sex tricks the same way it is handled for spells. So we would have e.g. Force Pleasure [Evil]. Good (or even Neutral) characters just don't run around learning how to this kind of stuff. Plus, I'd suggest a small sidebar to make our position clear that we are against rape in all forms.
Sexual Prowess... the mechanics look excellent. Good work all of you! I am definitely in favor of the Carnal Arts idea. However, feat requirements should be kept pretty general (as in "feats that even regular characters might take". If the character doesn't have a sexual focus, they simply won't have enough sex tricks/ranks in Sexual Prowess to qualify. This ensures that only people who really want it will eventually get it. Some "general" feats that come to mind: Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Toughness, Endurance...
I'll try to chime in a little bit more often, work permitting. However, all in all, we are on track and things are getting done. Can't wait to slap everything together and have a printed copy.
In any case... a few comments from me...
The NC stuff looks pretty good. (Ok, this sounds wrong). Let me rephrase... the NC mechanics seem sound. There... better. One addition though: since rape is universally considered evil, how about we add an alignment descriptor to the NC sex tricks the same way it is handled for spells. So we would have e.g. Force Pleasure [Evil]. Good (or even Neutral) characters just don't run around learning how to this kind of stuff. Plus, I'd suggest a small sidebar to make our position clear that we are against rape in all forms.
Sexual Prowess... the mechanics look excellent. Good work all of you! I am definitely in favor of the Carnal Arts idea. However, feat requirements should be kept pretty general (as in "feats that even regular characters might take". If the character doesn't have a sexual focus, they simply won't have enough sex tricks/ranks in Sexual Prowess to qualify. This ensures that only people who really want it will eventually get it. Some "general" feats that come to mind: Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Toughness, Endurance...
I'll try to chime in a little bit more often, work permitting. However, all in all, we are on track and things are getting done. Can't wait to slap everything together and have a printed copy.
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Death By Surfeit
First Post
Konnichi-wa!
I'm back from a visit to Japan, of all places, and I can assure that the sun is indeed still rising over the land there.
With regards the suggestions for carnal arts, your recommendations make a lot of the rules I'd been writing out somewhat redundant, so if you'd like to make your contributions to the topic, feel free.
I still remain in favour of the feat/prowess rank combo method, mostly because although the prerequisite feats may be better as conventional feats, the single-unlock system allows you to get one feat for access to five or six tricks, whereas otherwise you'd have to buy three or four for the same number, making carnal arts fairly scarce amongst lower-level players. It also avoids forcing characters to take feats they otherwise wouldn't want.
Nevertheless I'm willing to adapt to the feelings of the group at large - please post your feedback and suggestions, and we can get this show back on the road.
Thanks,
DbS
I'm back from a visit to Japan, of all places, and I can assure that the sun is indeed still rising over the land there.
With regards the suggestions for carnal arts, your recommendations make a lot of the rules I'd been writing out somewhat redundant, so if you'd like to make your contributions to the topic, feel free.
I still remain in favour of the feat/prowess rank combo method, mostly because although the prerequisite feats may be better as conventional feats, the single-unlock system allows you to get one feat for access to five or six tricks, whereas otherwise you'd have to buy three or four for the same number, making carnal arts fairly scarce amongst lower-level players. It also avoids forcing characters to take feats they otherwise wouldn't want.
Nevertheless I'm willing to adapt to the feelings of the group at large - please post your feedback and suggestions, and we can get this show back on the road.
Thanks,
DbS
VVrayven
First Post
I am fully in favor of this as well. I think there should be ONE basic carnal art accessible without a feat and the rest should require one. Just MHO
Sorry I've been out of touch. Personal life issues. I should be back around and posting in full monday or so. Maybe we can pump some energy into this slow down then.
Hi folks, here's another person de-lurking to (hopefully) contribute to the effort. I downloaded the currently available versions of the Guide a little over a month ago and spent some time tweaking things, trying out rules variations, running through encounter scenarios, and mulling over what seemed right and what didn't.
At first I set about expanding the catalog of Sex Tricks, which IMO are one of the highlights of the system: they permit a high level of personalization and lots of variety among characters. However, I soon identified two problems:
* the Tricks catalog was disorganized and tilted heavily in favor of certain ability scores over others
* few Tricks, if any, were available to persons of average ability
So, I started over with a different approach. In my new system, Tricks are handled in a manner similar to the acquisition of spells. A spellcaster has two requisites to learn/cast a spell: she must be of a sufficient class level, and her relevant ability score must be at least 10 + spell level.
Likewise, each Trick in my system has a "level"; this number forms the basis of two requirements. The Trick level is both the number of ranks in SP and the number of points above 10 in the relevant ability score required to learn the Trick. This yields the happy result of providing low-level, simple Tricks to persons with modest ability scores of 11 (or 13!), and it organizes the Tricks into lists categorized by ability score (similar to Psionics).
Here's the list of Tricks I've produced so far. Some are directly from the Guide, some have familiar names but are changed in substance, and some are original.
STRENGTH
Lvl Tricks
1 Musc. Control (+1 SP when penetrated)
1 Kegel Flex (bring self from Peaked to Aroused w/ successful Fort save at DC 10)
2 Intense Lvr (add STR mod to SP when engaged in strenuous physical intercourse)
3 Display Physique (add 1/2 STR mod to SP when partner can see your body)
4 Support Partner (maintain difficult strength-based sexual position w/o requiring STR check for # of rounds equal to SP ranks)
5 Stunning Pleasure (per Guide)
DEXTERITY
Lvl Tricks
1 Foreplay (+1 SP when arousing partner w/ foreplay; this does not bring partner to Peaked state)
1 Pinch (pinch your own or your partner's phallus firmly at the base to bring the recipient from Peaked to Aroused state w/ a successful Fort save at DC 10)
2 Striptease (double your CHA mod bonus to SP when arousing partner w/ a striptease; this does not bring partner to Peaked state)
2 Sexual Focus tricks (per Guide)
3 Bondage Focus (per Guide)
3 Maw/Orifice Stuffing (per Guide)
3 Sexual Combination (make Dex check at DC 12 to apply SP bonuses from two Focus Tricks used simultaneously)
4 Instant Withdrawal (per Guide)
4 Coordinated Lvr (per Guide)
5 Everywhere at Once (make DEX check at DC 14 to apply SP bonuses from 3 or more Focus Tricks used simultaneously)
5 Contortionist (maintain difficult dexterity-based sexual position w/o requiring DEX check for # of rounds equal to SP ranks)
CONSTITUTION
Lvl Tricks
1 Enduring Lvr (per Guide)
1 Delay Orgasm (per Guide)
2 Resist Fatigue (double CON mod bonus to Fort saves to resist Fatigue; 1.5 CON mod bonus to Fort saves to resist Exhaustion)
3 Resist Pain (resist subdual dmg equal to CON mod each round)
3 Resist Disease (double your CON mod bonus to Fort saves to resist STD's)
4 Tireless (+3 to Arousal check; stacks with Enduring Lvr)
4 Quick Recovery (per Guide, but add CON mod to SP check)
5 Male Multiple Orgasms (have successive orgasms equal to CON mod before experiencing normal post-climax state)
INTELLIGENCE
Lvl Tricks
1 Pinch (see DEX-based Tricks)
1 Envision Better Lover (negate partner's SP penalties from appearance, voice, odor, body size/shape/texture, by imagining a more desirable lover. With successful Concentration check (DC 10) each round, negate penalty points equal to your INT mod +1)
2 Quick Study (if SP check result is >=15 and partner fails Arousal check, gain +1 to SP whenever using the same technique for duration of encounter)
3 Sexual Expertise (per Guide)
4 Teasing Lvr (per Guide)
5 Tantric Lore (add INT mod to Arousal checks)
5 Impressive Repertoire (add 1/2 INT mod to SP check when using any Focus Trick)
WISDOM
Lvl Tricks
1 Delay Orgasm (per Guide)
1 Pace Yourself (+2 to Arousal check when both partners are taking 10)
2 Multiple Orgasms {female} (if you climax from an Arousal check you failed by less than 10, make the check again to see if you really failed by 10 or more)
2 Greedy Lvr (per Guide)
3 Selfless Lvr (per Guide)
4 Responsive (per Guide)
5 Tantric Lore (add your WIS mod to Arousal checks)
5 Male Multiple Orgasms (have successive orgasms equal to WIS mod before experiencing normal post-climax state)
CHARISMA
Lvl Tricks
1 Easy to Read (per Guide)
1 Foreplay (see DEX-based Tricks)
2 Talk Dirty (per Guide)
3 Sexpot (add 1.5x your CHA mod to SP when you behave in an extremely sensual manner during sex)
4 Suggestion (overcome partner's turn-offs; partner must make Will save at DC=your CHA to refuse the suggestion; a true phobia adds +10 to the save roll)
* * * * *
As you can see, there are no Tricks requiring SP ranks greater than 5 or ability scores greater than 15, which seems fair to me. Many PCs and NPCs will have a couple of ranks in SP; few are likely to have 10 ranks or more.
Also, basic Tricks such as Powerful Lvr, Dexterous Lvr, etc. are not only not required for other Tricks; they are gone altogether. It occurred to me that realistically, CHA is the primary determinant of sexual success. A strong or dexterous character may learn Tricks to get extra mileage out of his abilities, but he can't just substutute DEX for CHA, especially if he suffers a natural CHA penalty.
I have other homebrewed changes to the Guide, but these are the most substantial. Just thought I'd toss 'em out there and see whether or not they have any merit as 3E-ish rules.
At first I set about expanding the catalog of Sex Tricks, which IMO are one of the highlights of the system: they permit a high level of personalization and lots of variety among characters. However, I soon identified two problems:
* the Tricks catalog was disorganized and tilted heavily in favor of certain ability scores over others
* few Tricks, if any, were available to persons of average ability
So, I started over with a different approach. In my new system, Tricks are handled in a manner similar to the acquisition of spells. A spellcaster has two requisites to learn/cast a spell: she must be of a sufficient class level, and her relevant ability score must be at least 10 + spell level.
Likewise, each Trick in my system has a "level"; this number forms the basis of two requirements. The Trick level is both the number of ranks in SP and the number of points above 10 in the relevant ability score required to learn the Trick. This yields the happy result of providing low-level, simple Tricks to persons with modest ability scores of 11 (or 13!), and it organizes the Tricks into lists categorized by ability score (similar to Psionics).
Here's the list of Tricks I've produced so far. Some are directly from the Guide, some have familiar names but are changed in substance, and some are original.
STRENGTH
Lvl Tricks
1 Musc. Control (+1 SP when penetrated)
1 Kegel Flex (bring self from Peaked to Aroused w/ successful Fort save at DC 10)
2 Intense Lvr (add STR mod to SP when engaged in strenuous physical intercourse)
3 Display Physique (add 1/2 STR mod to SP when partner can see your body)
4 Support Partner (maintain difficult strength-based sexual position w/o requiring STR check for # of rounds equal to SP ranks)
5 Stunning Pleasure (per Guide)
DEXTERITY
Lvl Tricks
1 Foreplay (+1 SP when arousing partner w/ foreplay; this does not bring partner to Peaked state)
1 Pinch (pinch your own or your partner's phallus firmly at the base to bring the recipient from Peaked to Aroused state w/ a successful Fort save at DC 10)
2 Striptease (double your CHA mod bonus to SP when arousing partner w/ a striptease; this does not bring partner to Peaked state)
2 Sexual Focus tricks (per Guide)
3 Bondage Focus (per Guide)
3 Maw/Orifice Stuffing (per Guide)
3 Sexual Combination (make Dex check at DC 12 to apply SP bonuses from two Focus Tricks used simultaneously)
4 Instant Withdrawal (per Guide)
4 Coordinated Lvr (per Guide)
5 Everywhere at Once (make DEX check at DC 14 to apply SP bonuses from 3 or more Focus Tricks used simultaneously)
5 Contortionist (maintain difficult dexterity-based sexual position w/o requiring DEX check for # of rounds equal to SP ranks)
CONSTITUTION
Lvl Tricks
1 Enduring Lvr (per Guide)
1 Delay Orgasm (per Guide)
2 Resist Fatigue (double CON mod bonus to Fort saves to resist Fatigue; 1.5 CON mod bonus to Fort saves to resist Exhaustion)
3 Resist Pain (resist subdual dmg equal to CON mod each round)
3 Resist Disease (double your CON mod bonus to Fort saves to resist STD's)
4 Tireless (+3 to Arousal check; stacks with Enduring Lvr)
4 Quick Recovery (per Guide, but add CON mod to SP check)
5 Male Multiple Orgasms (have successive orgasms equal to CON mod before experiencing normal post-climax state)
INTELLIGENCE
Lvl Tricks
1 Pinch (see DEX-based Tricks)
1 Envision Better Lover (negate partner's SP penalties from appearance, voice, odor, body size/shape/texture, by imagining a more desirable lover. With successful Concentration check (DC 10) each round, negate penalty points equal to your INT mod +1)
2 Quick Study (if SP check result is >=15 and partner fails Arousal check, gain +1 to SP whenever using the same technique for duration of encounter)
3 Sexual Expertise (per Guide)
4 Teasing Lvr (per Guide)
5 Tantric Lore (add INT mod to Arousal checks)
5 Impressive Repertoire (add 1/2 INT mod to SP check when using any Focus Trick)
WISDOM
Lvl Tricks
1 Delay Orgasm (per Guide)
1 Pace Yourself (+2 to Arousal check when both partners are taking 10)
2 Multiple Orgasms {female} (if you climax from an Arousal check you failed by less than 10, make the check again to see if you really failed by 10 or more)
2 Greedy Lvr (per Guide)
3 Selfless Lvr (per Guide)
4 Responsive (per Guide)
5 Tantric Lore (add your WIS mod to Arousal checks)
5 Male Multiple Orgasms (have successive orgasms equal to WIS mod before experiencing normal post-climax state)
CHARISMA
Lvl Tricks
1 Easy to Read (per Guide)
1 Foreplay (see DEX-based Tricks)
2 Talk Dirty (per Guide)
3 Sexpot (add 1.5x your CHA mod to SP when you behave in an extremely sensual manner during sex)
4 Suggestion (overcome partner's turn-offs; partner must make Will save at DC=your CHA to refuse the suggestion; a true phobia adds +10 to the save roll)
* * * * *
As you can see, there are no Tricks requiring SP ranks greater than 5 or ability scores greater than 15, which seems fair to me. Many PCs and NPCs will have a couple of ranks in SP; few are likely to have 10 ranks or more.
Also, basic Tricks such as Powerful Lvr, Dexterous Lvr, etc. are not only not required for other Tricks; they are gone altogether. It occurred to me that realistically, CHA is the primary determinant of sexual success. A strong or dexterous character may learn Tricks to get extra mileage out of his abilities, but he can't just substutute DEX for CHA, especially if he suffers a natural CHA penalty.
I have other homebrewed changes to the Guide, but these are the most substantial. Just thought I'd toss 'em out there and see whether or not they have any merit as 3E-ish rules.
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