Adult: GUCK development forum III

[Sorn]

Nice job on the spells everybody. I am not going to comment on each and every spell here, but just one quick thing... Adept is an NPC class. While it is definitely fitting for them to have some of these spells, let's not clutter the spell list up any more than necessary. I have yet to see any spells in the PHB (or any other d20 sourcebook) that have Adept listed anywhere. Adding a revised Adept spell list in an appendix is fine, but that's minor details that can be hashed out later.

Also, not to rain on anyone's parade here... Again, excellent job on the spells, but let's get the whole pregnancy thing done before we get completely lost in spells. I know spells are a lot more fun, but if we go through all the spells and something in the pregancy section necessitates spell changes, we are going to have to start over.

I've been with this project a long time, and I've seen this happen more than once. We have a time-line, so let's stick to it.

DbS, would you kindly post the most up-to-date version of the pregnancy rules you have? I am not sure the version on the website is the latest one. Once we are done with that, spells, spells and more spells.

Disclaimer: The above is not meant as an insult or a slight to anyone's contributions. I very much enjoy what all of you have come up with and everybody's comments are welcome. I am simply worried that we will become completely side-tracked by spells.

 

[Death By Surfeit]

Well said, Sorn, and damn you for making the post I had prepared irrelevant.

Oh, and regarding your comments Alzrius:
• Arousal and Libido-Affecting are included as descriptors as I thought certain spells and items would offer bonuses specifically to resisting them. If this is peripheral, they may be removed with little ado.
• English spelling looks better.
• ‘Mage Backhand’ and ‘Mage Fingers’ were designed as puns on ‘Mage Hand’. I agree, though, that ‘Mage Backhand’ is too long-winded. ‘Mage Slap’ is a worthy substitute.
• Yes, only eight of eighteen. Considering those that needed adjustment, those balanced above 1st level, and those that have been merged I don’t think it’s too bad a turnout. I would like to declare now that ideas for spells are just that, and whilst it would be nice to have every concept catered for, it is simply not practical. Besides, we’re theoretically editing, and condensing material is part of the job. If people would like to see spells I’ve left out featured, say so.
• Thanks for the nitpicking. It's not a glamorous job, but it's necessary.

I’ve been working on compiling the rules modifications and additions we’ve made over the last month or so, with some success. When the ‘Adult: GUCK development forum IV’ topic is posted, a copy of the GUCK Full Mechanics (v2.0) will be posted with it. It includes the soft focus rules, sexual alignment, kinks, conception, and interbreeding rules, besides a whole host of rewordings, clarifications and spelling corrections too numerous to count.

Ideally, the pregnancy and childbirth rules would also make an appearance, but the board seems to have got distracted, and I along with them. Congratulations to Sorn for getting us back on track. Whilst it is tempting to skip dreary mechanics discussions and go on to brainstorming clever spells, the rules vacuum must be addressed, and the board must pull together to that end.

I’ve come up with some provisional rules, the ones seen on the site, but they are somewhat sketchy and I would very much like to see everyone else’s ideas. If you could post whatever you can come up with, the section should be complete in no time.

Cheers,

DbS

 

[Alzrius]

I’ve come up with some provisional rules, the ones seen on the site, but they are somewhat sketchy and I would very much like to see everyone else’s ideas. If you could post whatever you can come up with, the section should be complete in no time.

Some of my initial reactions to Chapter 5's Pregnancy & Childbirth sections:

Ditch the monthly check. It doesn't seem to fit well for a plethora of reasons. For one, the amount of modifiers to be calculated is unwieldy. It also doesn't seem to address that a woman could have plenty of sex with multiple people in a month, which means things like Paternal Modifiers become somewhat complex, since you have to add in all the modifiers for all the males she's slept with over a month. Likewise, there is no way in that system to track which male is then the father of the child. It would also make little sense that a woman could, under this system, sleep with someone and not be pregnant from it until a month later.

The conception threat roll method is, IMHO, much better. It will require us to go through the monster section and list out the fertility of the creatures there, but that's acceptable.

Under the actual pregnancy section, the first thing that leapt out at me is that you don't say what kind of check is made against Weakness, Awkwardness, and Exhaustion (though its assumed they're Fort saves).

The notation in red there is right in that that way of measuring things will be very hard on commoners. It is, however, incorrect about the Con loss killing her through negative hit points alone, since Con drain won't reduce your hp below 1 hp/hit die. However, that said, it will almost certainly make surviving the birthing damn hard, since commoners will have a very low Con by then. Even if giving birth just deals damage, that alone will kill a lot of them.

I recommend that these checks only be made during the beginning of the first, third, fifth, seventh, and ninth stages. The rationale here is that I think the system presented for pregnancy is, in and of itself, a good one, but it is a bit too heavy. This way, halving it (almost), will give commoners an easier time surviving it, but will still make it not too uncommon that women die in childbirth.

I'm also thinking that the Weakness part of the checks should be abandoned, since, AFAIK, women may become less graceful and more tired while lugging around a heavy child in their womb, but nothing says they lose physical strength (as opposed to constitution).

I'd also suggest a section about how, during pregnancy, every hour after waking the pregnant female is Nauseated for one hour afterwards.

 

[Sorn]

Very good points Alzrius, and thanks for the correction on the Con/HP issue.

I agree on removing Weakness.

IMO, the Awkward factor would be easier replicated with an Armor Check penalty, as that covers all the things. Having that at a fixed rate would be good, maybe on alternate stages of pregnancy. E.g. 3rd stage you check for Exhaustion, at the 4th stage you become awkward, etc.

I'd also suggest removing the first stage checks, as there's not much showing yet that would impede actions.

Nausea is a good idea, but we should allow a save for it. Somehow I remember that it only happens in certain stages, but since I am a guy, and my wife has never been pregnant, I am not 100% positive on that. Anyone who has any knowledge about that or has gone through pregnancy, please chime up.

 

[Alzrius]

Very good points Alzrius, and thanks for the correction on the Con/HP issue.

No problem.

IMO, the Awkward factor would be easier replicated with an Armor Check penalty, as that covers all the things.

I'm not so sure about this. For one thing, it simply sounds odd to have an armor check penalty when the woman isn't wearing armor. This also brings up questions about do the penalties stack when she is wearing armor (maternity armor )? Likewise, from what I've seen, amor check penalties only hurt skill checks...nothing else:

Originally posted in the Equipment section of the SRD
Armor Check Penalty: Anything heavier than leather hurts the ability to use some skills.

Being pregnant should provide a penalty to everything Dex-related, IMHO. It should make it harder to move that you take a Dex penalty to armor, that you have a harder time making reflex saves, and even straight Dex checks, etc, not just skills.

I'd also suggest removing the first stage checks, as there's not much showing yet that would impede actions.

That could work...or it could be 2nd/4th/6th/8th periods of pregnancy maybe?

Nausea is a good idea, but we should allow a save for it.

I'd postulate it can't be saved against, but for the most part I claim ignorance here too.

 

[Sorn]

Ok, I see your point on the Armor Check Penalty idea. It could have been called Pregnancy Check Penalty, but that's besides the point. However, instead of Dex damage, how about an increasing penalty to everything Dex related like skills, saves, ranged attacks, etc.

Certain skills should not be penalized though. I don't see how a big belly would affect someone opening a lock or palming a coin. Just my 2c.

On to the other stuff...

Exhaustion: At Stage 3 and every other Stage thereafter, the mother has to succeed at a Fortitude Save DC 10+Stage or suffer 1 point of Constitution damage. This damage is temporary, but will not return until after the pregnancy is over.

Awkwardness: Starting at Stage 4 and every (other?) stage thereafter, the mother has to succeed at a Fortitude Save DC 10+Stage or suffer a penalty to all Dex-based activities that involve movement (Tumble, reflex saves, AC, etc.) Fine-motor skills like Sleight of Hand, Open Locks or Disable Device are generally not affected (DM's discretion applies.)

Nausea: I'd still say that a save should be allowed. I've heard people talk about it a little, and not everybody gets morning sickness, and the severity varies between those who do get it. Sounds like a save to me. I'll see if I can find any information on that.

So, except for Labor and Childbirth, we are doing pretty good. Also, the original guide had a long section the interaction of the fetus with spellcasting, planar travel, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Are we going to keep that?

Also, I'd like to point out that as it stands, pregnancy is about the worst thing that could happen to an adventurer mechanics-wise. There should be some good side-effects as well. Maybe a bonus to Cha skills, as the mother-to-be is "glowing".

 

[Sorn]

Ok, did a quick bit of research on morning sickness. It was amazingly easy to find info on that. Here's what I found:

How common is it?
About 10-20% of women have no nausea or vomiting, 28-30% have nausea only, and 52-56% experience some vomiting. Some researches say morning sickness can be a sign of a healthy pregnancy.

When does it start?
Some women experience symptoms within days of conception, but the average time from the last menstrual period to the onset of nausea is about 5-1/2 weeks.

When does it end?
About 60% of women will be over their nausea by the 12th week from the last menstrual period, and more than 90% are feeling better by the 16th week. A few unlucky women do have nausea throughout the pregnancy, and a few have nausea return in the final weeks of the pregnancy.




So, here's my proposal for Fort Save DC's to avoid morning sickness:

Stage I: Fort Save DC 5
Stage II: Fort Save DC 20
Stage III: Fort Save DC 15
Stage IV: Fort Save DC 10
Stage V-VIII: Fort Save DC 5
Stage IX: Fort Save DC 10

This simulates the varying degrees of morning sickness nicely. Since this is just a quick and dirty version, we can adjust the numbers for a better fit.

Edit: Just thought of an addition to the conception rules... age plays a factor with conception, so here are some Conception DC modifiers:

Female:
Middle Age +1
Old +2
Venerable +4

Male:
Old +1
Venerable +2

 

[asra]

Also, I'd like to point out that as it stands, pregnancy is about the worst thing that could happen to an adventurer mechanics-wise. There should be some good side-effects as well. Maybe a bonus to Cha skills, as the mother-to-be is "glowing".

I think "dead" is about the worst thing that could happen to an adventurer (mechanic-wise or other-wise).

With all due respect, while pregency is (if wanted) among the most important events, it's effects are disasterous to the adventuring woman. I don't think that there "must be" a good "mechnic-wise" to that - altough in many societies there will be social consequnaces (good or bad - depeneding on the social norms and the social standing of the mother-to-be).

In adventuring terms - this IS a sign that a shift in occupation (at least temporary) might be wise (in social campagin, on the other side, the character could probably still do quite a lot...)

 

[Sorn]

I think "dead" is about the worst thing that could happen to an adventurer (mechanic-wise or other-wise).

Well, yeah. Death does not only end the career, but also everything else. So, barring death, pregnancy could grind a campaign to a halt. So, while the mother's physical prowess is hampered, I don't see anything wrong with adding a few positive modifiers to some social skills to help her out. Of course those don't apply to every possible situation. The orc chieftain or the pissed-off dragon probably care less about whether the adventurer is pregnant or not. However, most civilized cultures will react positively. I am not talking huge modifiers, but something in the +2 to +4 range (DM's discretion applies) sounds about right.

 

[Alzrius]

Originally posted by Sorn
Ok, I see your point on the Armor Check Penalty idea. It could have been called Pregnancy Check Penalty, but that's besides the point. However, instead of Dex damage, how about an increasing penalty to everything Dex related like skills, saves, ranged attacks, etc.

Certain skills should not be penalized though. I don't see how a big belly would affect someone opening a lock or palming a coin. Just my 2c.

I think that this may be slicing it a bit thin. How easy is it to open a delicate lock without setting off a trap if you suddenly have something kicking you from the inside? Likewise, is the person you're stealing a coin from less likely to notice the pregnant woman brushing by him, or more?

Awkwardness: Starting at Stage 4 and every (other?) stage thereafter, the mother has to succeed at a Fortitude Save DC 10+Stage or suffer a penalty to all Dex-based activities that involve movement (Tumble, reflex saves, AC, etc.) Fine-motor skills like Sleight of Hand, Open Locks or Disable Device are generally not affected (DM's discretion applies.)

How much of a modifier? Is it cumulative with itself? And movement is so subjective, enough so that its open to abuse...is a female character taking the total defense option really moving if she's just defending herself? Stuff like that...its so much easier to keep it a Dex drain.

Also, the original guide had a long section the interaction of the fetus with spellcasting, planar travel, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Are we going to keep that?

My initial reaction is to say yes; that section was cool, if a bit complex. Assuming we can trim it down, it would be something pretty nice to have in the GUCK.

So, here's my proposal for Fort Save DC's to avoid morning sickness:

These look pretty good. This is something checked for daily, right?

Just thought of an addition to the conception rules... age plays a factor with conception, so here are some Conception DC modifiers:

Female:
Middle Age +1
Old +2
Venerable +4

Male:
Old +1
Venerable +2

The idea is good here, but it seems a bit too specific. I propose instead that we make a section elsewhere that just talks about generic Prowess (and other sex-related penalties) based on age. It's something of a staple that old people have a harder time of doing it (guys and getting it up, for instance).

Originally posted by asra
With all due respect, while pregency is (if wanted) among the most important events, it's effects are disasterous to the adventuring woman. I don't think that there "must be" a good "mechnic-wise" to that - altough in many societies there will be social consequnaces (good or bad - depeneding on the social norms and the social standing of the mother-to-be).

In adventuring terms - this IS a sign that a shift in occupation (at least temporary) might be wise (in social campagin, on the other side, the character could probably still do quite a lot...)

Originally posted by Sorn
while the mother's physical prowess is hampered, I don't see anything wrong with adding a few positive modifiers to some social skills to help her out. Of course those don't apply to every possible situation. The orc chieftain or the pissed-off dragon probably care less about whether the adventurer is pregnant or not. However, most civilized cultures will react positively.

Sorry Sorn, I agree with Asra here. The idea of adding in a "positive" mechanic for the sole purpose of merely balancing out the negative ones just doesn't seem right to me.

Not all civilized cultures will react positively to a pregnant woman. Perhaps she isn't married...then her being pregnant can be a horrible social stigma. Perhaps its a warrior culture, and while valuable, a pregnant woman is one who can't fight, and feels mildly ashamed about that, no "glowing" then. Hell, she might not even want the baby...it shouldn't offer Cha bonuses then.

Bonuses to things should be offered where the situation warrants it, not because it seems like some should be given just to balance something else out. Being pregnant probably is the worst thing that can happen to a woman who makes her career adventuring, so the mechanics should reflect that objectively.