Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
And then, there's the Holy Avenger.
-Hyp.
Advancement Levels of Celestials and Fiends?
- Thread starter RigaMortus
- Start date
And then, there's the Holy Avenger.
-Hyp.
In the example of an 4th level half celestial human, do you really think its worth it? Losing out on 4 base attack, 4d10 hps, and the 2 extra feats?
My DM said I could be a half celestial human paladin in the campaign I am in. I had to turn it down, and he gave it to me as +2 ecl, not even +4.
The thought of being 3rd level with 14 hps is a scary thought!
And in the example, he would have 14 hps at 5th! <Assuming the celestial part is given at first, and not the advancement path
>
But what do you think? Is it worth it at 1st? and then looking at it at 20th. Thanks alot for the input.
My DM said I could be a half celestial human paladin in the campaign I am in. I had to turn it down, and he gave it to me as +2 ecl, not even +4.
The thought of being 3rd level with 14 hps is a scary thought!
And in the example, he would have 14 hps at 5th! <Assuming the celestial part is given at first, and not the advancement path
>But what do you think? Is it worth it at 1st? and then looking at it at 20th. Thanks alot for the input.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
I've just finished putting together a half-celestial Pal-16 for a level 20 game. By that level, the Con bonus has made up for the lost hit dice, and you've picked up most of the spell-like abilities... it's certainly more attractive than the half-cel Pal-2 in a L6 game!
Oh - in this case, I decided I didn't want wings, and while I think I've made on the deal, the choice between 4 more character levels or the template goodies was still a tough one. I think the wings would have made it less of a dilemma, but they didn't fit the character.
-Hyp.
hammymchamham
First Post
adding templates at lower levels isn't always great, IMO. So far IMC I have lost one PC, and he was a half-Celestial. Those extra 3 hit dice would have helped. In addition he was a spell caster, and lost those levels of spells.
Have you thought about a half-dragon? ECL 3, its +8 STR and you get a bump to Charisma (for if you go Paladin). Plus you'll get that extra hit die.
Half-celestial is nice, you gain 3 immunities, some spell like abilities, but a half-dragon gets a better bump to STR, is 1 lower ECL, and gets 1 immunity. And not to mention, a half-dragon get DARKVISION!
Have you thought about a half-dragon? ECL 3, its +8 STR and you get a bump to Charisma (for if you go Paladin). Plus you'll get that extra hit die.
Half-celestial is nice, you gain 3 immunities, some spell like abilities, but a half-dragon gets a better bump to STR, is 1 lower ECL, and gets 1 immunity. And not to mention, a half-dragon get DARKVISION!
The negative aspects of a Template are often more pronounced at the lower levels (where the lack of 3 or 4 HD makes a BIG difference) than it is at high levels (where the lack of 3 or 4 HD simply means equal HP with the Cleric instead of the Fighter)
This makes determining ECLs for Templates rather hard, since in many ways how many levels they are worth changes as the average level of the party does.
So ... who wants to play the 7th level Half Celestial / Half Celestial Human Fighter?
This makes determining ECLs for Templates rather hard, since in many ways how many levels they are worth changes as the average level of the party does.
So ... who wants to play the 7th level Half Celestial / Half Celestial Human Fighter?
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
It's why I think some templates should have a lower ECL, but impose an XP penalty.
-Hyp.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
That's a perfectly reasonable way to do it. Any suggestions for how the penalty would work?
On the topic of half-celestials and ECL: My general rule of thumb is that ECL characters with no HD (drow, half-celestials, half-dragons, etc.) shouldn't enter the campaign until the average party level equals ECL x2. Thus, I'd not allow a half-celestial character until the APL equals 8. IMHO, a 4th-level half-celestial fighter is perfectly survivable in a party of 8th-level characters; a 1st-level HC fighter is not survivable in a 5th-level party.
Mordeth: At ECL +2, you absolutely, positively should take an HC paladin, even at 1st level. If you get wings (ask your DM how he determines this), it's even more worth it.
Take your HC human paladin and arrange scores like this (HC bonuses in parens):
STR 14 (+4)
DEX 12 (+2)
CON 14 (+4)
INT 8 (+2)
WIS 10 (+4)
CHA 16 (+4)
Total scores:
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 20
Starting feats: Power Attack, Flyby Attack (if wings) or Dodge (if wingless)
Init: +2 Dex
AC: 17 (+4 chain shirt, +1 natural, +2 Dex bonus)
Speed: 30 ft., 75% chance of fly 60 ft. (good)
HP: 14
Attacks: By weapon +5 melee; by weapon +3 missile
Damage: By weapon +4 Str
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, immune to acid, cold, disease, electricity, +4 Fortitude save bonus vs. poison
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +7
Compare this character with a 3rd-level human paladin. The human gets one more feat (3rd character level) and 2(d10+Con) additional hit points. He loses out on damage, saves, and ability to fly, gains none of the HC spell-like abilities (which are REALLY useful at low levels), and is even-on in attacks due to the HC's higher Strength and Dexterity, which compensate for the lower BAB.
Definitely worthwhile to take the HC over the human.
On the topic of half-celestials and ECL: My general rule of thumb is that ECL characters with no HD (drow, half-celestials, half-dragons, etc.) shouldn't enter the campaign until the average party level equals ECL x2. Thus, I'd not allow a half-celestial character until the APL equals 8. IMHO, a 4th-level half-celestial fighter is perfectly survivable in a party of 8th-level characters; a 1st-level HC fighter is not survivable in a 5th-level party.
Mordeth: At ECL +2, you absolutely, positively should take an HC paladin, even at 1st level. If you get wings (ask your DM how he determines this), it's even more worth it.
Take your HC human paladin and arrange scores like this (HC bonuses in parens):
STR 14 (+4)
DEX 12 (+2)
CON 14 (+4)
INT 8 (+2)
WIS 10 (+4)
CHA 16 (+4)
Total scores:
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 20
Starting feats: Power Attack, Flyby Attack (if wings) or Dodge (if wingless)
Init: +2 Dex
AC: 17 (+4 chain shirt, +1 natural, +2 Dex bonus)
Speed: 30 ft., 75% chance of fly 60 ft. (good)
HP: 14
Attacks: By weapon +5 melee; by weapon +3 missile
Damage: By weapon +4 Str
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, immune to acid, cold, disease, electricity, +4 Fortitude save bonus vs. poison
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +7
Compare this character with a 3rd-level human paladin. The human gets one more feat (3rd character level) and 2(d10+Con) additional hit points. He loses out on damage, saves, and ability to fly, gains none of the HC spell-like abilities (which are REALLY useful at low levels), and is even-on in attacks due to the HC's higher Strength and Dexterity, which compensate for the lower BAB.
Definitely worthwhile to take the HC over the human.
Sir Whiskers
First Post
I tried designing a system where the standard ECL was halved, and difference applied as an XP penalty, but I found that subtracting fixed amounts of XP didn't balance very well (as XP's are much easier to obtain at high levels than low).
One possibility is to impose a penalty in the form of a percentage. Halve the ECL, and for every ECL saved reduce the XP's the character gains by 5-10%.
Example: Half-Celestial/Human/Level-1 Paladin. Treated as a 3rd level character with -15% to earned XP. He'll still be pretty powerful at 3rd level with the stat boosts and other abilities, but will level up more slowly than the rest of the party.
Just thinking out loud...
One possibility is to impose a penalty in the form of a percentage. Halve the ECL, and for every ECL saved reduce the XP's the character gains by 5-10%.
Example: Half-Celestial/Human/Level-1 Paladin. Treated as a 3rd level character with -15% to earned XP. He'll still be pretty powerful at 3rd level with the stat boosts and other abilities, but will level up more slowly than the rest of the party.
Just thinking out loud...
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
That was certainly my intention - XP penalties already exist in the system in percentage form in the multiclassing rules, for example.
-Hyp.
Similar Threads
- Poll
