Pathfinder 1E Advancing Monsters With a CR Below 1

airwalkrr

Adventurer
Let's say I have a kobold warrior 1 and I want to advance him to warrior 2. Kobold warriors have a base CR of 1/4. Does the advanced kobold warrior 2 now have a CR of 1/3? Or would it jump to 1/2, or possibly 1? I am having difficulty finding solid rules on this.

Another example: Let's say I have a kobold warrior 1 and I want to advance him to warrior 1/fighter 1. What would be his new CR? Just CR 1? What about a kobold warrior 1 advancing to warrior 1/fighter 2?

If this is in the rules, please help me find it. Thanks for your input.

Edit: I noted that NPC levels are never considered "Key" classes. So that would seem to indicate that for every 2 levels in an NPC class, the monster CR increases by 1. But kobolds are a special case since their CR begins at 1/4. Would a kobold warrior 3 then be CR 1/3, a kobold warrior 5 would be CR 1/2 and a kobold warrior 7 would be CR 1? That seems to be the most literal reading. However, I could also see a kobold warrior 3 being CR 1 since adding two levels of warrior would technically increase the CR by 1. However the example kobold rogue 2 given on the pfsrd site is only CR 1/2. This looks like the CR increases incrementally for monsters with CR less than 1. Hence a kobold rogue 1 would be a CR 1/3 and a kobold rogue 4 would be a CR 1.
 
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Let's say I have a kobold warrior 1 and I want to advance him to warrior 2. Kobold warriors have a base CR of 1/4. Does the advanced kobold warrior 2 now have a CR of 1/3? Or would it jump to 1/2, or possibly 1? I am having difficulty finding solid rules on this.

That's because the rules for working out CR aren't solid. They'll frequently give you the wrong answer, especially when you are freeforming. There are lots of choices you can make, deliberately or accidently, that will give you the wrong answers - too high or too low. I recommend 'eyeballing' both CR and EL as needed, especially with humanoids.

So that would seem to indicate that for every 2 levels in an NPC class, the monster CR increases by 1.

That's a pretty good rule of thumb. I'd note however that for commoner, it closer to CR +1/4 levels.

As far as CR below 1 goes, it's mostly do to racial traits. The difference between CR 1/4, CR 1/3, and CR 1/2 is very minor. For example, the difference between CR 1/4 and CR 1/3 seems to be about 1 hit point and a fraction of a point of potential damage per round. The more levels and advantages you add to the creature, the less important its racial diffences are going to be and the less I'd pay attention to them.

So for example, for warrior 3, that would normally work out to about CR 1 1/2. For an orc, I'd probably round up to CR 2. For a kobold or goblin, I'd probably round down to CR 1. For a warrior 5, that would normally work out to about CR 2 1/2. Again, I'd probably round down for a kobold to CR 2, and up for an orc to CR 3. How well does that work out? Well, a Dire Wolf is CR 3 and I can see an Orc warrior 5 with slightly superior weapons and armor as suits his station (chain instead of studded leather, for example) as being about as capable of a foe. A goblin or kobold warrior 5 is closer in power to the CR 2 worg, so I think that works pretty well too.

For PC classes, I tend to assume CR = level - 1, and drop the CR by one increment if the NPC doesn't have an elite stat array and by another 0-2 increments if it doesn't meet the expected wealth by level table for NPC's depending on the level the NPC. I don't usually consider race in the calculation. So I'd generally put an orc, goblin, or kobold rogue 4 all at about CR 2. The slight differences in racial abilities just don't amount to much compare to the capabilities you get from 4 levels of a PC class. Once we are talking CR 2 or CR 4, plus or minus 2 or 3 hit points just isn't enough to make a difference unless you want to start tracking fractional CR.

And I should say that in general, your NPC's SHOULDN'T usually have the expected wealth by level for NPC's. This is a terrible trap if you try to follow it. Not only will it make NPC's fantastically difficult to design, but if you plan to make most of your villains human (as is common in many human centric campaigns), you'll end up dumping way too much treasure and resources on the players. The game tries to get around this by giving the villains lots of one shot consumable resources, but that doesn't always work well.

Another peice of advice I can give you is that contrary to the EL rules, EL doesn't go up by +2 for each doubling of the number of monsters if the monsters are of low CR relative to the party. For a 6th level party, if 2 orcs are CR 1, 8 orcs are probably not CR 5. The problem with this assumption is two-fold. First, it ignores how vunerable monsters with low CR relative to party level are to area of effect attacks. If the entire force can be wiped out by a fireball, that probably didn't consume 25% of party resources. Secondly, it ignores the effects high AC relative to attack bonus has on expected damage. Let's say a monster needs a 15 to hit you and does an average of 6 damage, and so it hits about 1 round in 4 and generates 1.5 damage/round. Facing a higher level foe though with better defences, if it needs a 19 to hit now its hitting just 1 round in 10 and generating just .6 damage/round. And if it needs a 20 to hit then its hitting 1 round in 20 and dealing just .3 damage/round. If you compare 8 orcs to something like a CR 5 dire lion, it's pretty darn clear which foe is expected to do the greater amount of damage to a 6th level party. And orcs, like most brutes are fairly resiliant here because their 17 str gives them some staying power. Something like a Gnoll is fearsome at low level but quickly becomes trivial unless you work to keep it relevant. For that reason, I tend to lower the computed EL for large groups of relatively weak foes. If I wanted a CR 5 challenge in 1st level warrior orcs for a 6th level party, I'd bump the numbers up to about 32 - EL 9 by the rules and supposedly threatening a TPK but probably pretty trivial for most 6th level parties. That isn't a guess. This is based on experience. A 6th level fighter or other combatant will wade through orcs 2-3 orcs per round while taking minimal damage. A 6th level Wizard will one shot most of the orcs with a single fireball, and will negate massed missile fire with a single protection from missiles spell. The party cleric will negate any minor damage taken with 1-2 low level cures.

This has basicly been true since the 1st edition era. One of the first programs I ever wrote as a kid was a simulator to answer the question, "How many X can a fighter of level Y be expected to defeat single handedly." For 10th level 1e fighters, the answer for kobolds and goblins was in the high hundreds. Even for orcs I think the answer was around 300 or so. (I don't remember the exact numbers but they were really high, and the answer sometimes varied dramaticly depending on whether the fighter could put his back to a wall or stand in a doorway. In fact, they were so high that something the simulator didn't take into account would have been the overwhelming feature of any static combat - eventually the bodies would be form such a massive wall about the fighter that normal combat probably couldn't continue.) And that was one character. It didn't address the issue of "I cast cloudkill" or similar "I win" magic buttons.
 

That's because the rules for working out CR aren't solid. They'll frequently give you the wrong answer, especially when you are freeforming. There are lots of choices you can make, deliberately or accidently, that will give you the wrong answers - too high or too low. I recommend 'eyeballing' both CR and EL as needed, especially with humanoids.



That's a pretty good rule of thumb. I'd note however that for commoner, it closer to CR +1/4 levels.

As far as CR below 1 goes, it's mostly do to racial traits. The difference between CR 1/4, CR 1/3, and CR 1/2 is very minor. For example, the difference between CR 1/4 and CR 1/3 seems to be about 1 hit point and a fraction of a point of potential damage per round. The more levels and advantages you add to the creature, the less important its racial diffences are going to be and the less I'd pay attention to them.
Okay that helps a bit. PF calculates CR a bit differently than 3.5 (which was rarely, if ever, balanced). PF looks like it has codified things a bit better, but I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a rule I was missing. If I have to eyeball and compare to similar CR monsters, that is fine. I would probably say a kobold warrior 3 is about equal to a CR 1. Weak physical stats and small size put it at a disadvantage with other 3 HD monsters so CR 1 seems about right. CR 1/2 would probably be appropriate for a kobold warrior 2; a little beefier than an orc but with less damage-dealing capability (unless you count all those traps).

As for the rest of your reply, thank you, but it all seems pretty synonymous with my experience with 3.5. I don't think I will have much difficulty adjudicating CR beyond 1. I generally don't have problems with underpowered ELs. If I throw 8 orcs against a 5th level party and the wizard wins initiative to roast them with a fireball, so be it. It may not constitute 25% of the party's resources, but a wizard burned one of his highest level spell slots, which is something. Even if the party has a high AC, high damage (rare but possible combo) character capable of dispatching the orcs single-handedly without nary a scratch, I don't consider it a loss. The character was well-designed and the party handled it tactically.

I do like PF's XP budget approach. It was one of the (few) things I liked about 4e and I am glad the two systems share that in common, not that I ever played much 4e. It allows you to easily toss in some low level cannon fodder for the PCs to beat up on while the biggun makes his move.
 

If I have to eyeball and compare to similar CR monsters, that is fine. I would probably say a kobold warrior 3 is about equal to a CR 1.

About. I'd usually go with CR 1. The problem is that each CR actually covers a pretty wide range of capability.

Compare your Kobold Warrior 3 to another CR 1 humanoid, the Gnoll, and the kobold is pretty much straight up superior in every respect but alpha damage - +4 to hit with melee, +7 to hit with missile, same AC, 2-3 extra hit points, same movement rate, vastly better perception and stealth, better manuever bonus, better manuever defence, slightly better saves. Only the gnolls higher damage per successful attack keeps them even at all. And this goes to show that very slight changes in capability can have big effects. If your third level kobold warriors can afford studded leather and light crossbows (not even nearly NPC wealth by level stuff) then they move from maybe a bit over CR 1 monster up to nearly a CR 2 monster - compare with CR 2 boar. If you actually give gear assumed by a 2nd level basic NPC (much less a 4th), you add on say a bottle flaming oil, a chain shirt, maybe a few masterwork crossbow bolts... yeah, now we are CR 2. Throw in some traps, and "Hey, Tucker's Kobolds." (Note one of things about the famous 'Tucker's Kobolds' scenario is 1e had no guidelines on wealth by level and with few exceptions no difficulty adjustments based on available equipment. Hense Tucker was in 3e terms able to vastly increase encounter level without having to reward more XP.)

I find I'm always basically guessing +/- a CR for humanoids based on the specifics of what I've done with them. Where things get really wierd is when you don't build an NPC as an optimized combatant for their level. The most extreme case I've had was I statted out an aged grandmother (primarily for her social skills) who was a level 9 commoner, and whose CR as a level 9 character with no combat capability to speak of was probably like 1/4. She would have had a hard time beating off a kobold with her walking stick.
 

I find I'm always basically guessing +/- a CR for humanoids based on the specifics of what I've done with them. Where things get really wierd is when you don't build an NPC as an optimized combatant for their level. The most extreme case I've had was I statted out an aged grandmother (primarily for her social skills) who was a level 9 commoner, and whose CR as a level 9 character with no combat capability to speak of was probably like 1/4. She would have had a hard time beating off a kobold with her walking stick.
If CR is purely a representation of combat skills, then yes, a CR of 1/4 might be appropriate for such a character. However, if the characters were expected to overcome her influence over a community which refused to move out of the way of an advancing army because they refused to give up their ancestral lands, her CR might be considered much higher, possibly in the range of CR 2 or 3. I do try to take context into consideration when thinking about CR. If it's just a monster the PCs are expected to kill, combat ability, potential damage output, and likelihood to consume party resources are the most important factor. But for social interaction, puzzles, or mystery situations, the situation changes.
 

Let's say I have a kobold warrior 1 and I want to advance him to warrior 2. Kobold warriors have a base CR of 1/4. Does the advanced kobold warrior 2 now have a CR of 1/3? Or would it jump to 1/2, or possibly 1? I am having difficulty finding solid rules on this.

Another example: Let's say I have a kobold warrior 1 and I want to advance him to warrior 1/fighter 1. What would be his new CR? Just CR 1? What about a kobold warrior 1 advancing to warrior 1/fighter 2?

If this is in the rules, please help me find it. Thanks for your input.

Edit: I noted that NPC levels are never considered "Key" classes. So that would seem to indicate that for every 2 levels in an NPC class, the monster CR increases by 1. But kobolds are a special case since their CR begins at 1/4. Would a kobold warrior 3 then be CR 1/3, a kobold warrior 5 would be CR 1/2 and a kobold warrior 7 would be CR 1? That seems to be the most literal reading. However, I could also see a kobold warrior 3 being CR 1 since adding two levels of warrior would technically increase the CR by 1. However the example kobold rogue 2 given on the pfsrd site is only CR 1/2. This looks like the CR increases incrementally for monsters with CR less than 1. Hence a kobold rogue 1 would be a CR 1/3 and a kobold rogue 4 would be a CR 1.

In 3.5 D&D the CR of a kobold is based on its Level Adjustment of +0, so a Warrior 5 kobold will be CR 4 (since NPC classes have a -1 CR adjustment), and a Rogue 2 kobold will be CR 2.

Under Pathfinder, NPCs in general have a -1 CR adjustment, so a Rogue 2 kobold will be CR 1.

That business with "non Key" classes adding a 1/2 CR per level only applies until the number of added levels equals or exceeds the monster's starting CR. Since a kobold is only 1/4 CR, under the RAW all class levels it gains count as +1 CR per +1 PC class level.

Unfortunately, the actual threat represented by a kobold warrior 5 is generally much less than CR 4 - they're more like a CR 2 on average. The 3E Challenge Rating scheme just doesn't work very well, alas.
 

I have to correct you there, [MENTION=57383]Cleon[/MENTION]. In 3e, a Level Adjustment applies only when used as a player character or cohort. Still, your examples are correct. And this is one of the flaws of 3e: NPC classes are much weaker than PC classes, and even when taking PC classes, a monster's role is not given much consideration (some, but not much). A 10th-level kobold fighter will be inferior to a 10th-level orc fighter in every way. The differences might be small, but they can have a significant impact of the challenge the creature actually represents.

As for the kobold rogue 2, I point you this official kobold rogue 2 build example, which implies that there is more to take into account.

And regarding NPC class levels, "Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.", which I believe makes it clear than NPCs with NPC class levels are always only going to get +1/2 CR for each NPC class level. So even if we have a human warrior 4, his CR is going to be 2, because warrior is never considered a key class, and thus adds +1/2 CR for every NPC level.
 

And regarding NPC class levels, "Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.", which I believe makes it clear than NPCs with NPC class levels are always only going to get +1/2 CR for each NPC class level. So even if we have a human warrior 4, his CR is going to be 2, because warrior is never considered a key class, and thus adds +1/2 CR for every NPC level.

That doesn't matter under the RAW, since the 1/2 cost only applies as long as the number of levels added is lower than the starting CR of the monster. A kobold is CR 1/4, so it's impossible to add levels at 1/2 cost to it. It require a monster with a CR of 2+ to be able to add levels at 1/2 CR per level.
 

You are missing the point. Only key classes add +1 to the CR per level. Since NPC classes are "never considered key," they never add +1 to the CR per level. Evaluate a 10th-level human warrior and compare it to a typical CR 5 monster and you will likely see the reasoning behind it. Look at the cyclops for example. A 10 HD monster which is basically just a brute. It is, in most ways, functionally equivalent to a 10th-level human warrior. The human warrior is probably actually weaker, even if he is properly geared (although terrain or circumstances such as tight spaces might give the human an edge). So a 10th-level human warrior ought to be a CR 5. Since NPC class levels are never considered key, they always add +1/2 CR per level.

I also want to say that the commoner is a further exception to this rule and that they only gain +1/4 CR per level, but I can't remember where I saw that. But it would be appropriate.
 

You are missing the point. Only key classes add +1 to the CR per level. Since NPC classes are "never considered key," they never add +1 to the CR per level. *SNIP* Since NPC class levels are never considered key, they always add +1/2 CR per level.

I also want to say that the commoner is a further exception to this rule and that they only gain +1/4 CR per level, but I can't remember where I saw that. But it would be appropriate.

Oh I see, you're arguing that the "levels in NPC classes are never considered key" in the PathfinderSRD means that the "at which point they are treated as “key” levels" never applies.

I've always assumed it just meant that NPC classes were always considered "—" classes since that's how it works in the 3.5 SRD with associated/nonassociated classes (the D&D equivalent of key/non-key), and Pathfinder is supposedly compatible with those rules.

The Pathfinder Pregenerated NPCs Statistics has NPCs with a -1 CR compared to an adventurer, plus an additional -1 CR if they have an NPC Class. If the +1/2 CR rule applied, all the NPC classes have a CR equal to half their level. Since they don't, I believe my interpretation is more likely to be the one intended, it was just confusingly worded.
Pathfinder SRD
Step 3: Determine CR
Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.

D&D 3.5 SRD
Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

Evaluate a 10th-level human warrior and compare it to a typical CR 5 monster and you will likely see the reasoning behind it. Look at the cyclops for example. A 10 HD monster which is basically just a brute. It is, in most ways, functionally equivalent to a 10th-level human warrior. The human warrior is probably actually weaker, even if he is properly geared (although terrain or circumstances such as tight spaces might give the human an edge). So a 10th-level human warrior ought to be a CR 5.

Yes, I'm aware of the great difference in effectiveness between an X level Warrior and a monster of CR X. A Chieftain, for example, is a Warrior 12 and is CR 10 in Pathfinder, though as a melee opponent it's more like a CR 7 vanilla melee combatant, like a Stegosaurus or Dire Bear.

Giving NPC classes a CR equal to 1/2 their level is a good rule-of-thumb for their actual effectiveness, it just isn't what the rules say. Unfortunately the Challenge Rating rules for adding NPC class levels just don't work very well. The system is simply too klutzy.

The Pathfinder advancement rules produce more accurate results if you just eyeball it based on the "Step 1: Plan the Monster" Monster Advancement Table.

e.g. the Chieftain could be considered an Advanced form of a low-level Warrior, like Pathfinder's Bandit. It has -2 AC, +91 hp, +16 attack, +18.5 damage. Comparing those values on the table, you get:

HP +94 => 8 CR higher
AC -2 => 1 CR lower
Attack +16 => 9 CR higher
Damage +18.5 => 6 CR higher

If we add those up adjustments (+8, -1, +9, +6) and average them it comes to +5.5, which would be CR 6 if it were added to the Bandit's CR 1/2.

Using level/2 to estimate an NPC classes CR is a lot easier though, and usually gives results in the right ballpark.
 

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