WalterKovacs
First Post
At the same time, some are taking the view that while the players are an intelligent group, the DM is as well. It may not be hard for the PCs to get in position to use the orb, but the DM controls the monsters, not the PCs.
Adventurer's Vault 2 Playtest
- Thread starter fissionessence
- Start date
At the same time, some are taking the view that while the players are an intelligent group, the DM is as well. It may not be hard for the PCs to get in position to use the orb, but the DM controls the monsters, not the PCs.
James McMurray
First Post
I take it you're unfamiliar with 4E's forced movement rules and powers?
Webby140
First Post
I'm already using a slight mod of the Spellscar abilities in my campaign as tatoos that characters can purchase, so the idea behind them I have no problem with.
The get better the more healing surges you spend? I don't understand why. They're just magically enchanted tatoos right? So how are they linked to your endurance? Seems silly to me.
A one off (Daily) spell that can be cast from them sounds simple enough, no need to complicate them with buffs.
The get better the more healing surges you spend? I don't understand why. They're just magically enchanted tatoos right? So how are they linked to your endurance? Seems silly to me.
A one off (Daily) spell that can be cast from them sounds simple enough, no need to complicate them with buffs.
James McMurray
First Post
Only a few of them care about your surges. The rest have other triggers.
All magical tattoos react to the character's inborn abilities: surges, being bloodied, etc. Presumably it's because they're more than just an item, they're tied directly into your nervous system.
All magical tattoos react to the character's inborn abilities: surges, being bloodied, etc. Presumably it's because they're more than just an item, they're tied directly into your nervous system.
WalterKovacs
First Post
I'm familiar with them. However, those do involve having to hit for the most part. While the orb is "no attack roll needed" ... it does involve using, and hitting, with the right powers to get the most use out of it. Since the orb doesn't suddenly make those powers auto-hit, and those powers are important to use the orb effectively, the orb isn't automatic by any stretch. The fighter can Come and Get It a couple of monsters into position, but then again, monsters that close are likely the kind you could get easily like brutes and soldiers.
And, regardless, you can't fight the entire encounter in the orb unless it's against a "straight" solo, and it's either not a dragon, or it's a dragon that you catch at the right moment.
I'm with James here.
"Dear DM, please remember that pcs of level X will have access to fly, teleport, etc. so please design your adventures with this in mind."
IOW, the orbs decrease design space. If I have to take them into account for every encounter I'm creating there are things I can no longer do, so they really hurt the game.
I think the idea behind the orbs is cool, but I don't like the execution and the potential for abuse.
TBH, I don't like the direction of this kind of reasoning. It reminds me of certain 3E arguments:
"Dear DM, please remember that pcs of level X will have access to fly, teleport, etc. so please design your adventures with this in mind."
IOW, the orbs decrease design space. If I have to take them into account for every encounter I'm creating there are things I can no longer do, so they really hurt the game.
I think the idea behind the orbs is cool, but I don't like the execution and the potential for abuse.
James McMurray
First Post
Thank you, that's the point I've been making all along. The point is that you're not fighting the entire encounter. If an encounter is balanced for your party, and you split it into pieces, is it still balanced?
The orbs aren't as useful against a solo, unless the GM has designed some interesting scenery that you want to avoid. Their usefulness comes precisely from allowing you to not fight the entire fight in one place or against a coherent and unified opposition.
Have you played at high enough levels to use powers (monster or otherwise) that remove someone from the battle for a while? Whether it's warlocks sending you to another plane, elementals immobilizing a melee character with a sustain effect, or being swallowed whole, the ability to remove even a single creature from the fight for a short amount of time is insane. The ability to pick and choose which and how many you remove indefinitely is even better.
If that's the game you want to play, that's cool.But it goes against the "terrain matters" and "balanced combats" precepts that 4E supposedly adheres to.
James McMurray
First Post
Looking back over the maps while composing my response to Dragon, I thought of a couple more things wrong with the orbs.
- Any monster that relies on terrain can be nullified. Lurkers will be hard pressed to lurk when there's nowhere to hide that can't be reached in a single move action.
- Likewise monsters that need space to work are also nullified. Skirmishers become weak soldiers unable to break away from the defenders and strikers.
- They need rules for what happens to things that are taken inside and left behind. Can the PCs build fortifications? What if someone gets disarmed and the effect ends before they get their weapon back?
- Any monster that relies on terrain can be nullified. Lurkers will be hard pressed to lurk when there's nowhere to hide that can't be reached in a single move action.
- Likewise monsters that need space to work are also nullified. Skirmishers become weak soldiers unable to break away from the defenders and strikers.
- They need rules for what happens to things that are taken inside and left behind. Can the PCs build fortifications? What if someone gets disarmed and the effect ends before they get their weapon back?
WalterKovacs
First Post
(a) The orb can make things considerably easier, however unlike a lot of powers that eliminate someone from the fight temporariliy, this does not damage those it eliminated (i.e. those it didn't take into the orb). It will make 1 encounter per day easier ... of course, most daily powers make an encounter a lot easier than it would normally be.
(b) It is possible to use "waves" as a way to make a party able to face higher level encounters than they would normally be able to do. That was the idea behind the Irontooth fight, and the orb can be a way for the DM to up the challenge level against the party. Having the monsters that were "left behind" get reinforcements isn't completely out of the question, especially if they are fighting intelligent creatures.
(c) Skirmisher/Lurkers are the monsters that will really hate the orbs, artillery as well to some extent. At the same time, brutes and soldiers won't care that much. I think that's been mentioned a few times already. They aren't nullfied, but they are definitely hurt. At the same time, the same can be said about just about anyone but the defender and melee leaders ... the ranger/warlock/rogue is going to be limited in their mobility [the barbarian will have a hard time charging], and the wizard is forced in close quarters, not to mention he has to pretty much avoid doing any area of effect attacks while inside the orb.
(d) There is no mechanic for disarming per se in the first place. The rules for things like "what happens to stuff you leave in the orb" is likely something that can be handled by the DM. The easiest way to handle things ... anything not "native" to the orb is shunted out at the end, whether it's held or not. So whatever was disarmed would be in the same relative space it was when they got out. If a DM thought it would be cool to have the PCs build a club house there (over the course of many days, 5 minutes at a time) he could, but it does seem a bit implausible. Also, if they bring in that much material, then it would likely start pulling in material when the orb is used, making terrain features from one area come along for the ride, which is probably not the normal use for the orb.
Ultimately, I'm not saying everyone should allow the orb. They put the disclaimer there for a reason, these orbs aren't just run of the mill magic items, they are "allow the players to have them at your own risk". What I am saying is that, a DM that gives them to the players it's doomed to failure if they understand that going in, and design their encounters accordingly. The players, by that point in their career are going to have a lot of powerful abilities. If the DM just designs encounters without factoring in the PCs abilities, they are going to have their plans foiled quite often.
Ultimately, if returning from inside the orb just means finishing what's left of the encounter ... and that is what always happens, then the DM isn't really trying. When the ENTIRE party disappears, depending on how it is, I would think the other monsters would act. Either the party ends up coming back and ending up face to face with another encounter that has shown up to help, or to find that the rest of the encounter has fled, perhaps to increase the population in a different encounter.
A DM that sees it as a prolem doesn't have to include. A DM that sees it as an opportunity can work with a party that has the "rare" magic item. Regardless, the item should never be considered something that is easy to make/buy, and should be kept away from artificers ... but then again, both the orbs AND artificers are in playtest, so that particular situation way be solved before they both become official.
(b) It is possible to use "waves" as a way to make a party able to face higher level encounters than they would normally be able to do. That was the idea behind the Irontooth fight, and the orb can be a way for the DM to up the challenge level against the party. Having the monsters that were "left behind" get reinforcements isn't completely out of the question, especially if they are fighting intelligent creatures.
(c) Skirmisher/Lurkers are the monsters that will really hate the orbs, artillery as well to some extent. At the same time, brutes and soldiers won't care that much. I think that's been mentioned a few times already. They aren't nullfied, but they are definitely hurt. At the same time, the same can be said about just about anyone but the defender and melee leaders ... the ranger/warlock/rogue is going to be limited in their mobility [the barbarian will have a hard time charging], and the wizard is forced in close quarters, not to mention he has to pretty much avoid doing any area of effect attacks while inside the orb.
(d) There is no mechanic for disarming per se in the first place. The rules for things like "what happens to stuff you leave in the orb" is likely something that can be handled by the DM. The easiest way to handle things ... anything not "native" to the orb is shunted out at the end, whether it's held or not. So whatever was disarmed would be in the same relative space it was when they got out. If a DM thought it would be cool to have the PCs build a club house there (over the course of many days, 5 minutes at a time) he could, but it does seem a bit implausible. Also, if they bring in that much material, then it would likely start pulling in material when the orb is used, making terrain features from one area come along for the ride, which is probably not the normal use for the orb.
Ultimately, I'm not saying everyone should allow the orb. They put the disclaimer there for a reason, these orbs aren't just run of the mill magic items, they are "allow the players to have them at your own risk". What I am saying is that, a DM that gives them to the players it's doomed to failure if they understand that going in, and design their encounters accordingly. The players, by that point in their career are going to have a lot of powerful abilities. If the DM just designs encounters without factoring in the PCs abilities, they are going to have their plans foiled quite often.
Ultimately, if returning from inside the orb just means finishing what's left of the encounter ... and that is what always happens, then the DM isn't really trying. When the ENTIRE party disappears, depending on how it is, I would think the other monsters would act. Either the party ends up coming back and ending up face to face with another encounter that has shown up to help, or to find that the rest of the encounter has fled, perhaps to increase the population in a different encounter.
A DM that sees it as a prolem doesn't have to include. A DM that sees it as an opportunity can work with a party that has the "rare" magic item. Regardless, the item should never be considered something that is easy to make/buy, and should be kept away from artificers ... but then again, both the orbs AND artificers are in playtest, so that particular situation way be solved before they both become official.
Doctor Proctor
First Post
Yeah, I think most of what you said is the right way to look at it. With such a small space, the PC's will be at a large disadvantage as well. There's a ton of striker powers that allow you to do things like shift twice your speed in order to get out of trouble...in a 5x5 square, such things are useless. The PC's are in just as much danger as the monsters.
Sure, I guess if you've got a couple Tempest Fighters or TWF Rangers, you might be alright...but that's a very specific party build for high damage, and with those kinds of players they would've been able to lock down and decimate individual enemies anyway.
Another thing that's being missed here I think is that it's going to be hard to cherry pick which enemies end up in orb. The easiest ones to get in or course, would be the Brutes and Soldiers. They'll be out in front engaged with your Defenders anyway, so it's just a matter of moving up your back row and activating the orb. Those are also the enemies that will be least affected by the orb in terms of losing their ability to maneuver around the battlefield.
And yes, while the part has a lot of powers that allow for push/pull/slide effects, those are usually encounter and/or daily powers. How many powers are you going to expend to get half a dozen enemies into that sphere? Most of your push powers will be useless unless the enemy was already in your back row mixing it up, which means you'll need to rely on the less common pull/slide powers. About the only really cheap one for doing this would be the Fighter's Come and Get It and it's higher level versions. Even still, unless he runs into the enemy back row, he's mostly likely going to be drawing in Brutes and Soldiers.
Basically, as long as you're not treating like any mundane item where the party can enchant one or buy one in a shop, then I don't see a problem with it. By keeping it limited to just one per party it's going to be a once a day power that they can use. Also, as Walter pointed out, while the Artificer can recharge items that is a class that's in playtest right now too. When these things actually come out "officially" it's possible that many properties of each will be changed (I know they were talking about completely redesigning the Artificer's ability to heal, for example). If, at that point, having an Artificer in your party means you can recharge this thing on a short rest for 50gp or something ridiculous, then you can cry nerf. Until then though, I don't see how this will really screw things up that bad.
Sure, I guess if you've got a couple Tempest Fighters or TWF Rangers, you might be alright...but that's a very specific party build for high damage, and with those kinds of players they would've been able to lock down and decimate individual enemies anyway.
Another thing that's being missed here I think is that it's going to be hard to cherry pick which enemies end up in orb. The easiest ones to get in or course, would be the Brutes and Soldiers. They'll be out in front engaged with your Defenders anyway, so it's just a matter of moving up your back row and activating the orb. Those are also the enemies that will be least affected by the orb in terms of losing their ability to maneuver around the battlefield.
And yes, while the part has a lot of powers that allow for push/pull/slide effects, those are usually encounter and/or daily powers. How many powers are you going to expend to get half a dozen enemies into that sphere? Most of your push powers will be useless unless the enemy was already in your back row mixing it up, which means you'll need to rely on the less common pull/slide powers. About the only really cheap one for doing this would be the Fighter's Come and Get It and it's higher level versions. Even still, unless he runs into the enemy back row, he's mostly likely going to be drawing in Brutes and Soldiers.
Basically, as long as you're not treating like any mundane item where the party can enchant one or buy one in a shop, then I don't see a problem with it. By keeping it limited to just one per party it's going to be a once a day power that they can use. Also, as Walter pointed out, while the Artificer can recharge items that is a class that's in playtest right now too. When these things actually come out "officially" it's possible that many properties of each will be changed (I know they were talking about completely redesigning the Artificer's ability to heal, for example). If, at that point, having an Artificer in your party means you can recharge this thing on a short rest for 50gp or something ridiculous, then you can cry nerf. Until then though, I don't see how this will really screw things up that bad.
