Adventurer's Vault 2 Playtest

[Lizard]

Re: Orbs. Am I the only one when reading about this thought of those Pokemon balls? Great, so not only has 4th edition put a little Magic: the Game into D&D (Power Cards), now they've added a little Pokemon too.

Uhm... no. Things come OUT of Pokemon balls.

Like 3.5e Paladin mounts.

I personally, find the "world in a bottle" concept 15 kinds of kick-ass, and I like the fact they're going beyond "+X to attack rolls/defenses and once a day you can do something marginally useful" with magic items.

 

[James McMurray]

Yeah, I love the concept too. But it makes it too easy to split the enemy. If it automatically hit everything in the battle, and thus only let you change the terrain, it would be better. It'd still be too much IMO, because it destroys the GM's desire to make interesting terrain. But at least then it wouldn't both nullify all terrain and also let you split the enemy forces into easily chewed morsels.

 

[Lizard]

Yeah, I love the concept too. But it makes it too easy to split the enemy. If it automatically hit everything in the battle, and thus only let you change the terrain, it would be better. It'd still be too much IMO, because it destroys the GM's desire to make interesting terrain. But at least then it wouldn't both nullify all terrain and also let you split the enemy forces into easily chewed morsels.

Shrug. At 20th level, PCs ought to start having these kinds of world-warping abilities. One of my issues with 4e at release was that higher tiers were very much like lower tiers, just with bigger numbers. Something like this is something which really sets apart higher-level adventuring. Epic adventuring should be EPIC.

(I also like games like FATE (Spirit of the Century) where players can actively alter the terrain or "change reality" via metagame abilities, so it really doesn't bother me.)

As others have noted, this ability basically seals a squishy wizard in the dome with the monsters. "We're not trapped in here with you; you're trapped in here with US." If he gets a lot of monsters, unless they're minions, he's likely to be dead quickly. If he only gets 1 or 2, he's removed himself from the fight while the rest of the monsters do the "No controller dance!" all over the party. Certainly, in some circumstances, it could be a "We win!" button, but I think using it well will require some tactical skill.

 

[James McMurray]

Epic adventuring should be EPIC.

It is.

As others have noted, this ability basically seals a squishy wizard in the dome with the monsters. "We're not trapped in here with you; you're trapped in here with US." If he gets a lot of monsters, unless they're minions, he's likely to be dead quickly. If he only gets 1 or 2, he's removed himself from the fight while the rest of the monsters do the "No controller dance!" all over the party. Certainly, in some circumstances, it could be a "We win!" button, but I think using it well will require some tactical skill.

Why would any wizard ever trap himself in with tough monsters. The party decides when and where the ability is used. If he does trap himself, point, laugh, and continue the game while he makes a new character or awaits a raise dead, because the player is a moron or chose to make a noble sacrifice. What's really going to happen though, is that the prty will work together to make sure that every time it's used it's as close to an I win button as possible. Your mileage may vary, but my group isn't stupid, so I know exactly how it would turn out.

Try it in your game and see how it works for you. If it's fun to have your carefully crafted terrains and monster synergies removed with a standard action, great.

 

[Lizard]

Try it in your game and see how it works for you. If it's fun to have your carefully crafted terrains and monster synergies removed with a standard action, great.

It will be a long time before I run a 4e epic game, but I'm quite used to my Brilliant Encounters falling to pieces before the cleverness of the players in every other game I've played, from GURPS to 3e. A new and exciting way of having them turn the game around wouldn't bother me much.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Why would any wizard ever trap himself in with tough monsters.

Well, isn't that part of the point that you've been arguing about? If the Wizard is just trapping himself with a bunch of Minions then what's the point? He could've used that Standard to drop an AoE on them and finished them off properly without using the Orb. I thought the whole point was to try and use it to separate tough monsters from the pack to whittle down their numbers.

The problem though, as Lizard pointed out, is that the monsters are in there with the Wizard...and he just burned his standard. If they're pushovers then it won't matter much to the encounter design, and if they're not, then they'll have a good opportunity to go after the Wizard in close quarters where he can't escape.

And honestly, as for your "lovingly crafted terrain"... As pointed out before, there are a TON of Wizard abilities that will massacre that terrain and completely screw up your encounter design. If you have a problem with Wizard's getting around/creating terrain, then you should just ban the class. My party's Wizard can't wait to get his hands on Web, which is an encounter long effect. Talk about encounter changing...and it's only a level 5 daily. This orb is level 19 or 20! At least with the orb you can try to stun the Wizard to get out of the Orb. With Web, there's no way to remove it.

 

[James McMurray]

Well, isn't that part of the point that you've been arguing about? If the Wizard is just trapping himself with a bunch of Minions then what's the point? He could've used that Standard to drop an AoE on them and finished them off properly without using the Orb. I thought the whole point was to try and use it to separate tough monsters from the pack to whittle down their numbers.

What I'm saying is that he won't trap himself with them. He'll trap them with him and the rest of his party. Going in alone is a stupid move, and you can't balance an item based on the hope that the PCs will be stupid.

The problem though, as Lizard pointed out, is that the monsters are in there with the Wizard...and he just burned his standard. If they're pushovers then it won't matter much to the encounter design, and if they're not, then they'll have a good opportunity to go after the Wizard in close quarters where he can't escape.

If his Defender was capable of pretecting himself outside of the orb, he should be capable of protecting him inside it. If he isn't capable, then the orb is immaterial because the wizard is dead.

And honestly, as for your "lovingly crafted terrain"... As pointed out before, there are a TON of Wizard abilities that will massacre that terrain and completely screw up your encounter design. If you have a problem with Wizard's getting around/creating terrain, then you should just ban the class. My party's Wizard can't wait to get his hands on Web, which is an encounter long effect. Talk about encounter changing...and it's only a level 5 daily. This orb is level 19 or 20! At least with the orb you can try to stun the Wizard to get out of the Orb. With Web, there's no way to remove it.

Each and every one of those abilities leaves the current terrain intact, and only modifies it. If you think teleporting to a pocket dimension of your choosing and web are the same, we may as well stop here because we're on completely different wavelengths.

 

[knasser]

I think I know to what purpose I'm going to bend the Orb mechanics.

They should work great for big monsters with Engulf attacks.

There is already a beastie that does something similar(ish) - the Astral Dreadnought from Manual of the Planes (it's previewed on the WotC site). If it manages to swallow a PC, that character is stuck in a pocket dimension with naught but the Dreadnoughts horrible floating eyeball staring at them (and it stares so hard it does damage). They're not out of the fight because this is 4e they can still attack the eye, but they're separated from their allies. If the dreadnought eats the cleric for example, it's bad for both the eaten and the remainder party.

But back to the orbs, I have to weigh in here with James. There are so many exciting encounters that these orbs would nullify, it's unreal. Just to fill people in, I like dramatic battles with much more going on than two parties simply beating on each other. When the party is leaping from ice flow to ice flow in the arctic river as they sword fight with Eladrin, when the party are choking on the sulferous fumes of the volcanic vents whilst the Hell Hounds harry them, when the Vrocks are swooping past them from perch to perch (and these orbs sound really bad for highly mobile or stealthy opponents), I do not need the players' response to be "okay - merlin, turn on the orb."

Just my thoughts.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

What I'm saying is that he won't trap himself with them. He'll trap them with him and the rest of his party. Going in alone is a stupid move, and you can't balance an item based on the hope that the PCs will be stupid.

If his Defender was capable of pretecting himself outside of the orb, he should be capable of protecting him inside it. If he isn't capable, then the orb is immaterial because the wizard is dead.

Fine, so you have your party of 5 PC's. I assume you want all of them in the sphere? Let's say you have a Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric (easier for my chart below). Let's say it looks like this:

xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxFPx
xRWC

That's a pretty good defensive setup with the Defenders in front, and it allows ample space to fit monsters inside. Now, that gargantuan dragon you're fighting? Yeah, he won't fit. So instead, we'll go with something a bit smaller...maybe a large creature? You can fit two of them in the orb with the PC's in the current configuration.

Even if we go with medium sized though, you're only going to get a few in there. If you actually get one of the enemy squishies, like a controller, then you could be in for some hurt because your whole party is now in a tight little bunch. If there's some skirmishers it could also pose a problem because they would probably focus fire with ranged attacks on the Wizard, and the Fighter and Pally will have a hard stopping that completely if the enemy has any Soldiers or Brutes with them.

There's a lot of pitfalls to putting yourself into a 5x5 square, but you're not really seeing them. Unless the DM is asleep at the wheel, he should be able to take advantage of them. If all the PC's are bunched to get in the sphere, then his monsters can do whatever they want while the whole party is in the sphere. If not all the PC's are in the sphere, then not only were the monsters split, but the party too! It's not just an automatic win button like you seem to think.

Each and every one of those abilities leaves the current terrain intact, and only modifies it. If you think teleporting to a pocket dimension of your choosing and web are the same, we may as well stop here because we're on completely different wavelengths.

I didn't say they were the same, just similar. In some ways, Web is actually a more powerful ability. The Wizard doesn't need to be within it's effects, it's ranged, doesn't cost a sustain minor (which means he can use another power that requires a sustain minor) and it permanently alters the terrain for the duration of the encounter. The orb only "alters" it for the time that the party is in the sphere. Once they drop back into reality, they'll be right back in the middle of your carefully designed terrain, with all the rest of the monsters from the encounter to deal with.

So yeah, I think it's a perfectly valid comparison. The Orb has additional controlling effects that Web does not, but Web permanently alters the terrain in a powerful way and at no cost to the caster.

 

[James McMurray]

All I can say is "try it and see." My view of what will happen given an intelligent group of players is alot different than yours. And we're obviously on different wavelengths.

Have fun!