Orcus
First Post
Wow. This has turned into a lively discussion. That is cool.
I can respond to a few of the comments and make a few extra observations:
1. Even though I said modules can sell well if done right, they still sell no better and often worse than splatbooks of the same size.
THAT is true. I have not had a module outsell a sourcebook (particularly a hardback general use book) except for Necropolis which is sort of special.
A 96 page monster book will sell better than a 96 page module. So the real reason you hardly see adventures is that we all agree 36 page adventures dont sell. So once you start having to make a bigger product then you have to ask yourself "if I am making a 96 to 128 page product, why make it an adventure?" THAT is the real problem with adventures.
Source books just sell better (in general). That is why you dont see more adventures. We do them because we have always done them and because we have now established a process for doing them and a team for doing them that works well because we stuck with it.
2. PDFs dont sell unless your name is Monte.
I hate to break it to people but PDFs dont sell. You would think with computer saavy gamers they would embrace PDFs. Nope. There is a real bias by the consumer to print products in this industry. I know we will get a ton of people singing the praises of PDFs. But they dont all put their money where their mouth is. I know. I have seen the numbers.
3. Selling over 20,000 copies of ANY product is a MONSTER RUNAWAY HUGE HIT.
The fact we did it with a module and that it is well over 20,000 (maybe over 30,000) is quite a nice number.
Here is some insight. It is rare for a company to print more than 5,000 copies even of a mainstream book. 10,000 is a huge sales number. You have to be Monte or have a big hit on your hands (I presume Mutants and Masterminds but I dont know) to sell over 20,000.
d20 numbers never come even close to a fraction of the WotC Core Book numbers. Never have. Its even worse now.
4. "DM's Cant Do 96 Pages"
I never said that. Someone posted above that their group could do that much stuff. I'm sure you can.
All I am saying is, unless you have done it, the weighing you do as a purchaser changes depending on the size of the work avoided.
For example, you may say "hey, that module is 36 pages, it looks ok, but i could do 36 pages no problem). You dont buy it. That math changes when it goes up to 96 or more and promises to give you months of play with way less work from you. Could you do it? Of course. But did the utility of hte product change? Yes.
5. Playtesting.
Yeah, that is a biggie. You can tell stuff that hasnt been playtested. Just like you can tell reviews of products that have only read them and havent played them. We playtest alot of our stuff online. We have created an a free online roleplaying chat where people can play in our playtests or just play their own campaings. Its free. Its on our site. There is a huge storhouse of characters too.
6. Module desing.
I saved the best for last.
I loved this quote from a poster above:
So this poster identifies these as good:
1. hand holding advice
2. generic setting
3. dungeon ecology that makes sense
4. dungeon inhabitants you can interact with
5. an actual story
We could go all day on whether those are good or not.
You will get people evenly split one #1. Some love it. Some hate it. The old modules had very little of this.
People do overwhelmingly like #2. Funny thing is that though most of the classic modules could be easily dropped in a campaign, many of them were actually desinged for a very specific campaign world--Homlett, the Giants, White Plume Mountian, etc. They had very specific settings but because there was little background stuff, it was easy to ignore. Like the guy above said about the 4 pages of background that could be said in 1 sentence.
People are split on #3. Some people think this is a fantasy game for god's sake. The monsters all eat rats or something. "Ecology" is just some word people impose to make the game too real. Others, however, are fanatical about it.
I dont understand #4. All of the classic modules had that. They just didnt spell out the interaction. They left it for the DM. There is no reason you couldnt sneak into Snurre's lair in Fire Giant, sneak into his bed chamber and perhaps cut a business deal with him to double cross the drow and then set up an ambush for the drow priestesses on level 3. You could do that. Nothing stopping you. If you DM chooses to run it as a hack and slash and you chosse to play it as a hack and slash, that isnt the module's fault.
Now my favorite, a "story". Well, what story? Some people call this railroading. It is true the old adventures didnt have much in the way of "story." That is because old module design left that to the DM.
Again i repeat my favorite saying "I give you the death star, you tell star wars."
What do I mean by that?
I give you the floor plan to the death start. I list all the rooms and contents. I give you an appendix with Darth Vader, stormtroopers, trash compactor monster, some sample star ships, etc. I call that product "The Star of Death". It has little background or setting. In fact, in it I say "This mobile fortress of death can easily be dropped into your future fantasy campaign".
What is that? It is essentially a huge dungeon.
Just because I presented it like that does that mean you have to run it as a DM as a hack and slash?
NO!!!!!! It is up to you to tell the story. YOU decide "hey, lets say that a princess was there, captured, and she has the plans to destroy the thing and we need to rescue her, and we can have a showdown with the big bad guy and one of our hero guys."
That is the story of star wars. Someone took a dungeon crawl and turned it into a story of heroism and escape.
So just because the old modules are a list of rooms, doesnt mean you have to run them like kick in the door adventures.
Old modules presumed DMs knew that. New ones think DMs need handholding and story telling.
We found a happy medium. We include overarching story ideas and motivations and a story arc that can be followed. But we leave it flexible enough for DMs to do their own thing.
This is really the key to modern module desing. "How much story." The modern purchaser (and I make no judgments on the modern purchaser, I am just stating what is true) does not want no story. You must have some. Similarly, the modern purchaser does not want a "railroaded" story forcing them to do certain things. This is the hardest balance to walk as a module designer.
In a way, the old modules were more like a mini-lair sourcebook than an adventure. They gave you a lair and its inhabitants and you decided what to do with it. Usuually, kick doors in and kill occupants. In fact, you could probably market to the modern purchaser the three giant modules as a "Giant Lair Sourcebook" and they would love it. They would praise its flexibility and the fact that no story is forced on you and you can do what you want. But put the word "adventure" on it and people have changed expectations. That is why most people run the Giant modules as kick in the door kill fests (they were also designed to be that). But they can be so much more. That is also why the modern purchaser sometimes doesnt like the older adventures because they feel "if it is an adventure, I shouldnt have to write the story."
Why do they feel like that?
Mostly because IMHO of the modules of the 2E era that were ALL story or that were railroaded stories. Like the Dragonlance modules. People came to think "adventure=story".
This balance is IMHO the most interesting design issue with modules.
Clark
I can respond to a few of the comments and make a few extra observations:
1. Even though I said modules can sell well if done right, they still sell no better and often worse than splatbooks of the same size.
THAT is true. I have not had a module outsell a sourcebook (particularly a hardback general use book) except for Necropolis which is sort of special.
A 96 page monster book will sell better than a 96 page module. So the real reason you hardly see adventures is that we all agree 36 page adventures dont sell. So once you start having to make a bigger product then you have to ask yourself "if I am making a 96 to 128 page product, why make it an adventure?" THAT is the real problem with adventures.
Source books just sell better (in general). That is why you dont see more adventures. We do them because we have always done them and because we have now established a process for doing them and a team for doing them that works well because we stuck with it.
2. PDFs dont sell unless your name is Monte.
I hate to break it to people but PDFs dont sell. You would think with computer saavy gamers they would embrace PDFs. Nope. There is a real bias by the consumer to print products in this industry. I know we will get a ton of people singing the praises of PDFs. But they dont all put their money where their mouth is. I know. I have seen the numbers.
3. Selling over 20,000 copies of ANY product is a MONSTER RUNAWAY HUGE HIT.
The fact we did it with a module and that it is well over 20,000 (maybe over 30,000) is quite a nice number.
Here is some insight. It is rare for a company to print more than 5,000 copies even of a mainstream book. 10,000 is a huge sales number. You have to be Monte or have a big hit on your hands (I presume Mutants and Masterminds but I dont know) to sell over 20,000.
d20 numbers never come even close to a fraction of the WotC Core Book numbers. Never have. Its even worse now.
4. "DM's Cant Do 96 Pages"
I never said that. Someone posted above that their group could do that much stuff. I'm sure you can.
All I am saying is, unless you have done it, the weighing you do as a purchaser changes depending on the size of the work avoided.
For example, you may say "hey, that module is 36 pages, it looks ok, but i could do 36 pages no problem). You dont buy it. That math changes when it goes up to 96 or more and promises to give you months of play with way less work from you. Could you do it? Of course. But did the utility of hte product change? Yes.
5. Playtesting.
Yeah, that is a biggie. You can tell stuff that hasnt been playtested. Just like you can tell reviews of products that have only read them and havent played them. We playtest alot of our stuff online. We have created an a free online roleplaying chat where people can play in our playtests or just play their own campaings. Its free. Its on our site. There is a huge storhouse of characters too.
6. Module desing.
I saved the best for last.
I loved this quote from a poster above:
So this poster identifies these as good:
1. hand holding advice
2. generic setting
3. dungeon ecology that makes sense
4. dungeon inhabitants you can interact with
5. an actual story
We could go all day on whether those are good or not.
You will get people evenly split one #1. Some love it. Some hate it. The old modules had very little of this.
People do overwhelmingly like #2. Funny thing is that though most of the classic modules could be easily dropped in a campaign, many of them were actually desinged for a very specific campaign world--Homlett, the Giants, White Plume Mountian, etc. They had very specific settings but because there was little background stuff, it was easy to ignore. Like the guy above said about the 4 pages of background that could be said in 1 sentence.
People are split on #3. Some people think this is a fantasy game for god's sake. The monsters all eat rats or something. "Ecology" is just some word people impose to make the game too real. Others, however, are fanatical about it.
I dont understand #4. All of the classic modules had that. They just didnt spell out the interaction. They left it for the DM. There is no reason you couldnt sneak into Snurre's lair in Fire Giant, sneak into his bed chamber and perhaps cut a business deal with him to double cross the drow and then set up an ambush for the drow priestesses on level 3. You could do that. Nothing stopping you. If you DM chooses to run it as a hack and slash and you chosse to play it as a hack and slash, that isnt the module's fault.
Now my favorite, a "story". Well, what story? Some people call this railroading. It is true the old adventures didnt have much in the way of "story." That is because old module design left that to the DM.
Again i repeat my favorite saying "I give you the death star, you tell star wars."
What do I mean by that?
I give you the floor plan to the death start. I list all the rooms and contents. I give you an appendix with Darth Vader, stormtroopers, trash compactor monster, some sample star ships, etc. I call that product "The Star of Death". It has little background or setting. In fact, in it I say "This mobile fortress of death can easily be dropped into your future fantasy campaign".
What is that? It is essentially a huge dungeon.
Just because I presented it like that does that mean you have to run it as a DM as a hack and slash?
NO!!!!!! It is up to you to tell the story. YOU decide "hey, lets say that a princess was there, captured, and she has the plans to destroy the thing and we need to rescue her, and we can have a showdown with the big bad guy and one of our hero guys."
That is the story of star wars. Someone took a dungeon crawl and turned it into a story of heroism and escape.
So just because the old modules are a list of rooms, doesnt mean you have to run them like kick in the door adventures.
Old modules presumed DMs knew that. New ones think DMs need handholding and story telling.
We found a happy medium. We include overarching story ideas and motivations and a story arc that can be followed. But we leave it flexible enough for DMs to do their own thing.
This is really the key to modern module desing. "How much story." The modern purchaser (and I make no judgments on the modern purchaser, I am just stating what is true) does not want no story. You must have some. Similarly, the modern purchaser does not want a "railroaded" story forcing them to do certain things. This is the hardest balance to walk as a module designer.
In a way, the old modules were more like a mini-lair sourcebook than an adventure. They gave you a lair and its inhabitants and you decided what to do with it. Usuually, kick doors in and kill occupants. In fact, you could probably market to the modern purchaser the three giant modules as a "Giant Lair Sourcebook" and they would love it. They would praise its flexibility and the fact that no story is forced on you and you can do what you want. But put the word "adventure" on it and people have changed expectations. That is why most people run the Giant modules as kick in the door kill fests (they were also designed to be that). But they can be so much more. That is also why the modern purchaser sometimes doesnt like the older adventures because they feel "if it is an adventure, I shouldnt have to write the story."
Why do they feel like that?
Mostly because IMHO of the modules of the 2E era that were ALL story or that were railroaded stories. Like the Dragonlance modules. People came to think "adventure=story".
This balance is IMHO the most interesting design issue with modules.
Clark
Sorry Clark, had to say it. Still one of my favorite books in my collection.
