Advice for green DM facing nine players

[ScottB]

Some background:

My group of three years just held out final session on Sunday as our much-beloved DM is moving out of state. By now, the group is very close and we wanted to stick together. I am inheriting the DM chair, which is somewhat intimidating as my only other DM experience has been a six session guest adventure with the same group last Fall. I over prepared, and everyone had a good enough time to want me back.

At the time I ran my adventure, the group consisted of five full-time players and two busy part-timers. Before we broke up we were running comfortably on seven full-time players.

Now, the group is forming up for the new campaign (we're slated to roll characters on the 25th) and I am looking down the barrel at perhaps nine full-time players. We picked up two significant others, one ex-part-timer who is back from NY with time to spare, and another friend who the retiring DM kept out of the game for reasons I never understood (and which I hope don't come up).


My plea:

I could really use some advice on how to best approach this large of a group.

I see several problems. Any social interaction brings in one to three players and leaves everyone at the end of the table to chat among themselves. Any viable threat to the party as a whole has a good chance of killing any given member in two rounds. With less of my attention to go around, I worry that pacing will flounder and people will get and stay distracted. With this many dice being thrown, someone will always make the Spot check, and someone will aways fail the Move Silently check. Less spotlight time means less fun for everyone, and decision making can be painstakingly slow if everyone wants a say.

I have considered many options for fighting the size. Not the most drastic of which involves another guy in the group who was going to switch off DMing with me for a few adventures (a guy who has never sat at the head of the table, but I'm not much better). I thought about asking him to come on full time as a co-DM. I hadn't worked out the particulars, but he could work the opposing force while I directed story, or at times we could split the party into two groups to accomplish two connected quests simultaneously. This alleviates the problem, but creates a host of others connected to the troubles innate in having two DMs.

Lesser help would come from giving encounters with more weaker enemies, pairing people based on their move silently/whatever checks and have them make four or five checks rather than eight or nine, and generally running a very tight ship with people rolling all attack and damage dice at once, planning their actions ahead and knowing when it's not their turn in the limelight. Lucky for me, it's a good group and I can expect this from most of them.


So, are there any veterans of large groups out there with sage advice for a self-proclaimed newbie? Has anyone co-DM'd before, or been in a game with two DMs? All comments are greatly appreciated.

 

[VirgilCaine]

In a couple of weeks-or is it a full month? I will have, ten players.

My brother, who is one of the players, plans to take half (four or five) of the players and then form a second group that may or may not continue to be connected IG with the first one...it depends on the players. That's out solution.

 

[Fieari]

My first experience with a group that large was entirely negative, and I'd promised myself I'd never do it again. I did, of course, but the increase was slow, and methods were designed on the way for dealing with it.

The two biggest things I found that helped were, firstly to divide the group up into little mini-groups of two, which would each decide things together, and then make a "Team Leader" who makes final decisions for the group as a whole. This just naturally sortof popped up with the personalities of my players, but I would hope it would work out in a more planned capacity. Furthermore, don't make it too rigid... they can change partners at any time on the fly, but they always need one. This made group managment MUCH easier.

The second thing that helped was to INSIST that people know what they're going to do on their turn of combat BEFORE it's their turn. Set a time limit, and make it strict. If they can't decide, they actually loose their turn. Fifteen seconds sounds short, but it's actually quite a bit of time, and plenty enough to decide on an action.

Don't let the above deter PLANNING though... just give them the opportunity to plan things out BEFORE the battle starts. Once combat begins, keep it moving, or you'll regret it.

Hope this helps. It's still a headache and a nightmare to deal with so many people, but it is possible... just takes a lot more effort.

 

[Stalker0]

In general, having also seen big groups myself my best advise is....don't. Its hard enough on experienced dms, it could be an absolute nightmare for an inexperienced one. There are some techniques to help cope, but in the long run I think you and your players will be much happier if you trim the fat.

Run 2 games with half the group in each, have another person dm a group, but don't do it yourself.

Now I'm sure you all want to be together, you all want to socialize. And while dnd is a socialized game, its still a game that's meant to be played. If everyone wants to hang out, then hang out...somewhere else. But you can't throw 9 people into a game and expect it to run well.

For the sake of your sanity, don't do it

 

[reanjr]

You could try a co-DM. Someone you explain a situation to and who can run things when the party splits up.

Realize that CR totally breaks down at that number of characters. Instead of increasing CR, though, double the number of opponents.

Initiative cards can keep things moving in battle. Also, with as much time between turns as people will have, no one should have to look something up on their turn. Enforce that, and let people lose actions if they're not ready.

Try to create scenarios where the shyer players really shine, because they could really get lost in the shuffle.

Oh, if you were planning on starting at higher level than 1, I highly recommend you rethink that decision. As an inexperienced DM, it's much easier to handle low-level characters. By the time characters become higher level, you'll have more experience.

 

[BlueBlackRed]

If you're that green, attempting to DM a group that size could end up being pretty rough for all.
It varies for every group, but some people are vicious when it comes to green DMs.
So unless you're entire group is open-minded and willing to overlook a few things, you're in for some rough times.

That being said, talk to any potential problem players and try to get them to be on your side to start with. Ask them for some pointers and what they'd like to see in a game, but don't give up on any vision you may have.

Don't let anyone walk all over you or tell you how to run your game, but do listen to reasonable arguments.
Think for a few seconds before making a rules call. And if you make the wrong decision, don't be afraid to change your mind for the next session and let everyone know about it.

Don't make a bunch of extra house rules. New DM's seem to have a knack for throwing a bunch of pointless new rules. Avoid that.

And most important of all, keep your ego in check. If you want to say "Well I'm the DM and my word is final", then it's time to take a snack break.

 

[Ciaran]

Split the group into two smaller groups that run on alternate weeks, while getting the whole group together regularly for non-gaming outings. Actually trying to run for nine players without experience (or oftentimes with experience) is a recipe for disaster.

 

[satori01]

with that many players you are going to need to be a discplinarian.
I would reccomend upfront that you buy a One minute Egg Timer type hourglass and us it at the start of each persons turn in combat.

Tell the group no exceptions on time. this should also include starting time. A group that size and waiting for everyone will take forever.

The one good thing about a group that size is 3 combats will be a session, try to make them good ones. Any group that size and you can have very complex scenarios, where perhaps in on gigantic room on group of 3 has to pick a lock, while another deciphers ancient runes, while another engages the mumified gnoll zombies coming in the chamber.

If you are starting at first level balance can be a problem. In some ways a group that size skips out on typical "low level" feel, having essentially double the firepower of a typical group. Wait until the group is 2 level before throwing a CR 3 or 4 monster at them, use swarms of creatures at low level, and I would also advise having terrain that favors the creatures, this give a boost to the EL of the encounter w/o necessarily increasing the lethality of the monster.

Social Circumstances will be tough, do the best you can, pass a conch shell around to determine who is speaking, and try to engage the most amount of people as you can.

Realisticaly, if you max capacity is 9, someone is either going to drop out completely, effectively become "part time", or just be absent as time goes on. Be fluid enough to recgonize there might very well be times you planned for 9 and only 5 people showed up. 5 people is obviously enough to play D&D, but 5 people can not take an encounter meant for 9 people.

 

[Agback]

That large a group is tough. Each person's share of your attention is going to be pretty small, so there will be a big danger of having people's attention wander in the long intervals between their having input. If this results in their missing things, or need to have situations explained, your time, already short, will be wasted in repetitions, which could lead to runaway slowing down. This means that you have to do everything you can to keep things moving along, and to onvey information to players without have to tell it in words.

Visual aids are your dearest friend

Use a battlemat, use miniatures, counters, cardboard heroes. Whatever it takes to display the situation. You don't want to have players asking 'how far is?' 'where is?' etc. when it is there turn to act. Because asking takes time, answering takes time, making a decision takes time. Put it on teh mat, let people make their plans while they are waiting for their turn.

Use a visual display of some sort for the turn sequence, the initiative order. I like to have the players sit around the table from left to right in the order they act in combat. This way each person is right next to the descriptio of what is happening just before his turn, which cuts down on the Q&A at teh beginning of everyone's turn. Unfortunately the D&D turn sequence is a bit too fluid for this to be convenient.

Ask all the players to assist by being prompt

Make sure that there are enough copies of the rules around for this, and ask each person to check the rules for the thing they plan to do before their turn comes around. You will be lucky to finish the typical combat turn in ten minutes. They will often take twenty minutes each. That gives everyone lots of time to plan their actions and check any necessary rules. "You've had ten minutes, you character had six seconds. Do something, anything, right now" should become your catchcry.

But unfortunately, ten minutes is also plenty of time for people to get bored, for their attention to wander.

Sit around a table

It helps players focus. And maintaining focus is going to be your major difficulty.

Keep it simple

Don't use any optional rules that add complexity. Don't, for example, re-roll initiative every turn. Don't permit prestige classes. Don't use anything from outside the three core books. I know all the extra stuff is tempting, but you have to walk before you can crawl. Master teh basics before you try the optional extras.

Start at first level, and give out half the experience and half the treasure you think is appropriate. It is always easier to give more later than to take anything away.

In the same vein, set appropriate challenges by choosing a small number of comparatively tough foes. Combats will run quicker, and you'll have less record-keeping to do, and you won't have too much to deal with all at once. You will be less likely to overlook monsters' special abilities, or monsters' turns in combat, if you have fewer to worry about.

Get help

Consider asking one player to be co-GM, running monsters and villains in combat while you concentrate on adjudicating. Try to find some way for the players to help you in the down time between their turns. For instance, each player could control the mook monsters fighting the player four places to his or her left. Or a player whose character is not involved in a particular fight could take over temporarily GMing one half of the mat. (but be careful to keep at lest roughly in synch.

Don't panic if it is a bit of a shambles

My first campaign was a total shambles, and I had only three players. It wasn't 'cause I'm hopeless, it was because I was new and inexperienced, I got better. You wil too.

You're in the position of a novice juggler who comes to a bunch of very practiced jugglers and asks "I would like some advice on juggling nine balls at once." Most of them say "Start with three, practice every week, and add one more each Christmas". And they're right. You are going to end up spraying juggling balls all over the house, not once but several times. Don't let it get to you.

Go out. Make mistakes. Get crazy. Have fun.

A horseman would never put his horse over a wire fence. But you'll never be a horseman until you have fallen off nine times: three times in nettles, three times in water, and three times jumping a wire fence.

 

[Thotas]

Other than "run, run, run you fool!"?

Okay, that was a joke. But you're right to ask for advice, 'cause it aint easy and some people can never run a group that large, no matter how much experience they have.

Basicly, every bit of good DMing advice now goes tenfold. Though if I had one I'd push, it's the time issue. Once your turn is over, by the time seven other people have had theirs, you should have some idea what you're doing. I've seen players who read a magazine or something while the rest of the group is going, and when their turn comes around they need a recapitulation of everything that happened since they last rolled a die. Zero tolerance on this; if you're not interested in anything but what you personally are doing, there some nice first person shooter games on the computer for you.