D&D 5E Advice for running Tomb of Horrors with a twist (+)

[Celebrim]

I don’t think that’s gonna work for me, since that leaves open the possibility of making the tomb impossible to complete.

I am not sure what you mean by that, but if I take that sentence at face value then, with respect, if you are not leaving open the possibility of the tomb being impossible to complete then you aren't running S1 Tomb of Horrors. That the Tomb is not completed is in fact the most likely result and the result you should be planning for and mentally prepared for when you sit down to run the session. The most likely result is a TPK. The second most likely result is sufficiently close to a TPK that the survivors just decide they've had enough and are fleeing with what they can if they can. And the third most likely result is that the dungeon is otherwise not completed for some reason because the party can't get past a puzzle or just as likely is tricked into thinking that they completed the dungeon before they actually did so. I mean the dungeon has one encounter early on deliberately intended to achieve that result. You should be going into this mentally resolved to the fact that there is a better than 50% chance your players will never see most of the dungeon. You should be running this with the realization beforehand that there is a good chance the game will be over 20 minutes after you begin it.

If that idea leaves you dissatisfied, I strongly suggest a backup plan for post TPK, probably by preparing more than 3 entrance corridors and having multiple variations of both fake and real entrances so that post TPK, you can run the module again with a new party and new terrors. Extra points if you have multiple variations of any of the other choices or puzzles, such as rooms with 4 chests rather than 3 or different variations of the corridor of frescos, different orderings to the solutions in the secret door passage, different prepared outcomes in the nymph grotto, etc.. Happy to help you brainstorm that if you think it would be helpful.

If your intention is to not leave open the possibility that the dungeon isn't completed, then I'm not sure what to say or how to help you. The dungeon isn't designed like a typical adventure with completion being the most likely result. That's the point.

There are different interpretations of what to do about retries in 5e. But regardless, I don’t call for checks unless there’s a consequence for failure, and in Dungeon contexts, time wasted is a pretty common consequence.

Time wasted is in some sense pretty meaningless in S1. The dungeon is not designed to kill you for bad dice rolls or bad luck. So as I said, no failed search for secret doors check should be the end of it, but neither do I think the way to run this is just let them roll 20 times until they get lucky. If they don't get lucky the first time, then they shouldn't be allowed to reroll until they think of some relevant plan. If you will, think of that as the consequence. My point is that the dungeon doesn't work right if you try to run it as a test of character skill alone.

 

[aco175]

I would go gonzo and have the players each have 3 PCs where they play one and then the 2nd come in when the first dies. They now have a fresh PC with all the powers but might not fit in terms of classes they need at the moment. Random is best where if they need a rogue since the first was killed, they might get the paladin instead. Now they need to figure something out. After the 3rd dies, either they can take another player's PC or shuffle their own again. Beware of players trying to get themselves killed on purpose. Ultimate sacrifice to remove from the game one of the PCs to bypass something.

I would also include some sort of hero point / inspiration rolls. You can include drinking as part of using the roll or to be able to give it to another PC for saves and advantage on attacks and such. Maybe in some of the loot they find more points instead of treasure. Might be cheesy, but could be more fun for the table.

 

[Charlaquin]

I am not sure what you mean by that, but if I take that sentence at face value then, with respect, if you are not leaving open the possibility of the tomb being impossible to complete then you aren't running S1 Tomb of Horrors. That the Tomb is not completed is in fact the most likely result and the result you should be planning for and mentally prepared for when you sit down to run the session. The most likely result is a TPK. The second most likely result is sufficiently close to a TPK that the survivors just decide they've had enough and are fleeing with what they can if they can. And the third most likely result is that the dungeon is otherwise not completed for some reason because the party can't get past a puzzle or just as likely is tricked into thinking that they completed the dungeon before they actually did so. I mean the dungeon has one encounter early on deliberately intended to achieve that result. You should be going into this mentally resolved to the fact that there is a better than 50% chance your players will never see most of the dungeon. You should be running this with the realization beforehand that there is a good chance the game will be over 20 minutes after you begin it.

TPK won’t be an issue, due to the unlimited resurrections. Did you read the premise in the opening post? And for the same reason, I’m not really concerned with the risk of the players fleeing the dungeon out of fear for their characters’ lives. If the players call it quits, it’s likely to be because they’re stumped or not enjoying the game. I think the most likely reason for ending before completing the dungeon will simply be running out of time (in real life).

If that idea leaves you dissatisfied, I strongly suggest a backup plan for post TPK, probably by preparing more than 3 entrance corridors and having multiple variations of both fake and real entrances so that post TPK, you can run the module again with a new party and new terrors. Extra points if you have multiple variations of any of the other choices or puzzles, such as rooms with 4 chests rather than 3 or different variations of the corridor of frescos, different orderings to the solutions in the secret door passage, different prepared outcomes in the nymph grotto, etc.. Happy to help you brainstorm that if you think it would be helpful.

That’s an interesting idea, but I don’t think I’m going to go that route with it.

If your intention is to not leave open the possibility that the dungeon isn't completed, then I'm not sure what to say or how to help you. The dungeon isn't designed like a typical adventure with completion being the most likely result. That's the point.

Time wasted is in some sense pretty meaningless in S1. The dungeon is not designed to kill you for bad dice rolls or bad luck. So as I said, no failed search for secret doors check should be the end of it, but neither do I think the way to run this is just let them roll 20 times until they get lucky. If they don't get lucky the first time, then they shouldn't be allowed to reroll until they think of some relevant plan. If you will, think of that as the consequence. My point is that the dungeon doesn't work right if you try to run it as a test of character skill alone.

“A test of character skill alone” is as far from the way I run the game as it’s possible to get. The way I resolve actions is this: First off, I ask that players describe their actions in terms of a goal and a reasonably specific approach to achieving it. Then I consider if the approach could reasonably succeed in achieving the goal or not, and if there is any cost to the attempt or consequence for failure. Only if all three conditions are true do I call for a roll, otherwise it’s just narrative resolution. The risk I’m predicting is not that players will be able to just sit there rolling over and over until they get lucky, but that in the absence of time pressure, a lot of actions will result in success without a roll due to no cost or consequence for failure.

 

[Charlaquin]

I would go gonzo and have the players each have 3 PCs where they play one and then the 2nd come in when the first dies. They now have a fresh PC with all the powers but might not fit in terms of classes they need at the moment. Random is best where if they need a rogue since the first was killed, they might get the paladin instead. Now they need to figure something out. After the 3rd dies, either they can take another player's PC or shuffle their own again. Beware of players trying to get themselves killed on purpose. Ultimate sacrifice to remove from the game one of the PCs to bypass something.

This was my initial idea, but I decided to go with resurrecting the same character instead of starting a new one, because learning one 11th+ level character in 5e is enough work, I don’t want to make my players learn a new one every time they die, especially since they’ll likely be getting progressively more intoxicated each time.

I would also include some sort of hero point / inspiration rolls. You can include drinking as part of using the roll or to be able to give it to another PC for saves and advantage on attacks and such. Maybe in some of the loot they find more points instead of treasure. Might be cheesy, but could be more fun for the table.

Not a bad idea! I will definitely consider it.

 

[LordEntrails]

Maybe instead of drinking when you die, you can drink to get a hint on a puzzle?

Instead of "instead", go with in addition to So drink to resurrect, or drink to get a clue. Or drink cause your thirsty!

so what would be a good character level to facilitate that (assuming a party of 5)? I was thinking in the 11-16 range, but not sure exactly what level to go with. Also, starting equipment? I was figuring 2 permanent Uncommon magic items with the option to swap one or both for 4 Uncommon consumables each, plus whatever non-magical equipment people want.

I would go with level 12, and your items are good. Though I would consider that instead of resurrecting the previous character, maybe each player should come with 3 characters, and rotate through them if needed.

Folks who have read more than a few of my posts probably know I’m big on a source of time pressure, and typically use wandering monsters to fill that role in dungeons. But wandering monsters definitely doesn’t seem appropriate for the Tomb of Horrors, so what might be a more fitting source of that pressure?

Add a ticking clock, but don't make it do anything? They will think their is a time pressure, but their really isn;t one. If they try to rest, then you can have Acerak's spirit haunt them.

Something I’m not sure about is entering the dungeon. I don’t think poking around a hill with 10-foot polls to even get into the dungeon is going to start a party like this one off on the right note. But I also don’t want to skip over the possibility of finding one of the false entrances. Any ideas on how to handle that?

I didn't like this either. I just did a hidden roll to determine which entrance they found. I made the first try one of the false entrances, and then the second one it was 50/50 if they got the real entrance or the second false one.

The other thing to pay attention to, some of the map and description on the entry hall is confusing and wrong. Figure out how you are going to do the jailer door / false wall / pit. Google will give you details on the error that's here that goes back to the original and was not fixed in 5E.

 

[LordEntrails]

I would also include some sort of hero point / inspiration rolls. You can include drinking as part of using the roll or to be able to give it to another PC for saves and advantage on attacks and such. Maybe in some of the loot they find more points instead of treasure. Might be cheesy, but could be more fun for the table.

New characters start with inspiration? Each character that solves a puzzle/challenge get inspiration?

 

[Charlaquin]

Instead of "instead", go with in addition to So drink to resurrect, or drink to get a clue. Or drink cause your thirsty!

Definitely! Really I don’t expect anyone to follow the “finish your drink to res” rule more than once or twice. The point is just to set the right mood: character deaths here are silly and fun!

I would go with level 12, and your items are good. Though I would consider that instead of resurrecting the previous character, maybe each player should come with 3 characters, and rotate through them if needed.

12 seems like a pretty good level to go with. I considered the multiple characters idea, but I’m concerned my friends won’t have the mental space for several high-level characters, especially after a few drinks.

Add a ticking clock, but don't make it do anything? They will think their is a time pressure, but they’re really isn;t one. If they try to rest, then you can have Acerak's spirit haunt them.

That’s… brilliant! And feels very in keeping with the spirit of the tomb.

I didn't like this either. I just did a hidden roll to determine which entrance they found. I made the first try one of the false entrances, and then the second one it was 50/50 if they got the real entrance or the second false one.

I really like the idea from earlier in the thread that the PCs have been hired by some archeologist who already found the tomb and its three entrances, but doesn’t want to risk going in themselves. That could also provide an in-fiction excuse for the resurrections. The archeological team could have a cleric in their employ who remains outside the tomb and keeps a lock of each PC’s hair to resurrect them from if they die.

The other thing to pay attention to, some of the map and description on the entry hall is confusing and wrong. Figure out how you are going to do the jailer door / false wall / pit. Google will give you details on the error that's here that goes back to the original and was not fixed in 5E.

Oh, interesting. I didn’t notice the issue when reading through, but I will certainly look into this. Thank you!

 

[Charlaquin]

New characters start with inspiration? Each character that solves a puzzle/challenge get inspiration?

That’s a good one! I was thinking about using the 1D&D inspiration on a natural 20 rule, but this feels much better.

 

[Celebrim]

Definitely! Really I don’t expect anyone to follow the “finish your drink to res” rule more than once or twice. The point is just to set the right mood: character deaths here are silly and fun!

Well, I hope it works out. I've heard of using livestock to get through the entrance corridor. I hope that none of your players decide to use their player character as a Stalin mine detector, and also feel compelled to finish the drink every time.

 

[Charlaquin]

Well, I hope it works out. I've heard of using livestock to get through the entrance corridor. I hope that none of your players decide to use their player character as a Stalin mine detector, and also feel compelled to finish the drink every time.

If someone tried that, I’d cut them off in the interest of their safety I don’t think that’ll actually be a problem though. We’re all over 30 and no longer looking to get plastered.