D&D 5E Advice needed: is it ok to kill a player’s character if he is not there!

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
If characters are at risk because a player couldn't make a session, this will lead to players being dissatisfied and leaving, plain and simple. I get that it can be a bummer when people don't show to a game, but if they risk having their characters get killed when they aren't there, that will lead to them just not showing up at all, going somewhere else for their gaming fix. I don't think any player cares if people appear/disappear based on whether the player is there or not.
I care.

In our games, consistency and continuity in the fiction are paramount - as IMO they should be. @pming 's terms is APC, we call them QPCs: Quasi-Player Characters, defined as "a character active in a session at which its player is not present", and if you've got a character in a party and can't make a session, it becomes a QPC for the night. QPCs are halfway between PCs and adventuring NPCs. They still earn xp, take risks, and do whatever else they'd normally do based on their established history and persona.

Also, in these days of always-on 24-7 communication, any really earth-shattering decisions for the QPC can - depending on the real-world situation - often be sorted with a quick text to the player.

Also, contrary to your experience, the risk of bad things happening to your PC if you're not there has IME been something of an incentive to show up. :)
 
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jgsugden

Legend
.... For me, real life over the game - every time. A person dealing with an emergency shouldn't have to worry about how their absence affects the story of the game;...While the disappearance may hurt other PCs, foisting a PC on another player is much more likely to cause a player problem (arguments over what could have been done, arguments over items, etc.)...
We're really going to put the well-being of the pretend characters over this real-life human's emergency situation? The DM simply needs to adjust the encounter accordingly on the fly to compensate for 1 less PC in the action. It is really not hard... Worrying about immersion or verisimilitude or RAW or story at that point is not only unnecessary, it is heartless if a player is having a real-life emergency.
I've played this way for decades with a lot of different players. Nobody ever indicated they felt pressured not to deal with the real world. There is often a regret that they can't be part of the game, but this happens all the time. The game goes on without them, and they come back to whatever took place. Sometimes good things happen in their absence. Sometimes bad. There have been a few afk deaths. However, this is D&D. Only one of them was a death that stuck, IIRC, and that one was where the player tended to like to switch up PCs a lot.
I can't imagine someone concocting an emergency to avoid a consequence in game, at least not in my group. If it ever comes up then it would merit a discussion about priorities and bad faith gaming;
Invoking the Jerk Fallacy is not helpful. We're assuming good faith play. Good faith players want to play through challenges. Jerk players and jerk DMs can ruin anything.
Jerk players exist. Cheaters exist. Catching them, and dealing with them, is outside the scope of this discussion. However, my point is not outside the scope: A get out of jail free card for lying gives an incentive to do bad things that doesn't need to be there. Temptation is rarely a good thing if you don't want your apples bitten.

For the most part, none of the problems being presupposed here occur. And, again, this is with decades of D&D being played this way.

Nobody gets angry that someone else played their PC. In my groups, we've all had our PCs run by someone else at times. For the most part, when someone else runs the PC, they tend to be a slight bit more conservative with the PCs and there is rarely a problem for the PC (although being conservative does tend to create more risk for the other PCs).

There are times when PCs do just walk off screen in my games, as well, when the player can't be there. We do it when it makes sense for the story. Further, I've played with groups that don't care about the story at all and just have PCs disappear when the player can't be there, even mid combat.

However, that has caused as many problems as it has avoided (if not more).

In one game that is a stronger example, we were trying to solve a problem that required a MacGuffin. The player of the PC with the MacGuffin had a conflict, so his PC went off to do something (I don't recall what his character was doing). We thought it would not be a problem because we did not expect to deal with the MacGuffin during that session. However, that DM (who was really amazing) had some interconnection between the backstories of some of the PCs that we did not realize until we found ourselves deep in a 'dungeon' and realized we needed to use the MacGuffin, but that there was no realistic way for us to get the PC with the MacGuffin back to us in time. The DM had a choice to break the story to force the PC back into the story, to stop the game earlier in the night and tell us we had to have the other PC (which would have been a huge spoiler and ruined a lot of his hard work), or let us walk into a dungeon knowing we were going to fail a major challenge in the game with no chance of success. If the PC had just been with us, it would have changed the course of that campaign. There was a little frustration that we failed (which had major impacts on two PCs) because the player missed the session.

Further, when a PC is not there, it often changes what the players decide they want to do, which has often put the DM into improvisation mode as the PCs wander off to do something other than the thing the DM had prepared to run because a key player for that activity is not there. I'm fine improvising, but the best sessions I run are when I am prepared (especially during the current online era).

I play in, and run, story driven games. Writing out PCs causes a lot of problems when you have story driven games with interconnection. As it hasn't caused any real problems in 35 to 40 years of gaming, I'm not likely to change how I run games.
 

fba827

Adventurer
Do the other characters that were present know/observe the death, or merely was relayed as player knowledge?


If the characters did not observe it up close, the rogue might have just been knocked unconscious and his body taken. But being a rogue, just narrative that the rogue was able to wake up and sneak away.

Or if the characters observed and confirmed the death then maybe the ettin shaman raised him from the dead or cloned him from his remains for some reason ( offering some personal narrative story/plot) but such

Anyway how to fix it all really depends how much the present characters observed/confirmed the death or if it was down the corridor so they never confirmed it themselves merely assumed....


As a personal anecdote, I would not care if I trusted my DM to have had a fair scenario where my pc might have died in my absence. That said, I know many players that would not be ok with it. And in fact as a DM I did have a pc die when the player left mid battle and another player was controlling his character. It’s been over ten years and the player still makes the occasional comment about how he’d never let a pc die when the player is absent.
 

CAFRedblade

Explorer
The ettins' attacks had downed him, would have do so whether he was there or not, correct? That happened just after he had finished his turn. So.. one way is he survives, but perhaps with some permanent scar. Something scares off the ettins and goblins. ( slight retcon )
One way, he dies as per your original scenario. Nothing changes after the end of the previous session, but the rest of the party finding a corpse.

If you and the player want to let the roll of the dice decide. Have him roll some death saving throws at the start of the next session.
If he succeeds and stabilizes, something along the first option happens. If he fails, the death scenario plays out.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
In my weekly Dungeon of the Mad Mage game (online via Discord/Owlbear Rodeo), everyone showed up, and we immediately proceeded to roll initiative against some starving goblins, bugbears and 2 ettins.

then once like the first round of combat was over, one of my players had to go handle family business all of a sudden...

I tend to believe that player actually had to go do something in his personal life, but it was at a real bad time because it left his rogue alone in the middle of combat against two ettins who pounded on him to death and killed him without him being there.

now. I must point out that even if the player didn’t have to leave, he would have died anyways because the ettin’s turn came before his turn, ...and the same thing would have happened anyways...

yet...somehow, it feels wrong to kill a player when he’s not there to see it go down...

am I over thinking this?
How should I break the news to this player?
should I fudge something?
man I wrong to feel like a jerk?
Am I a jerk?
No.
 


Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
you guys are all making a lot of sense, and this player means a lot to me...
but i guess im only human and of course im willing to fess up to a mistake that in hindsight, i would have and should have not killed him...

...but literally...
This player had his turn...
then said he had to go...
and it was the ettins and goblins turn right after he left...
and he was all alone (while th party was down the corridor fighting bugbears)
and im ok if i screwed up...
but in the moment, i just felt like of course the ettins are gonna beat him down,
and the starving goblins were gonna eat him up...

i didnt expect him to suddenly leave?!!
He probably was distracted just before he had to leave, and normally would have said he uses his bonus action to use cunning action to disengage and retreat out of there. Give the guy a break. If he was just screwing around that's one thing, but if he had a genuine personal issue that demanded he had to leave that moment, I'd cut him slack.
 

Am I a jerk?

No. Character deaths happen. Generally speaking, of course you don't kill characters when their players aren't present. In this case, however, it seems like the die was basically cast on his death before he left. While you might have come up with all manner of ways to alter plans on the fly to save the character, and I'm sure some of those ways would have done a reasonable job of not undermining the immersion or stakes of the encounter, an actual DM running an actual encounter in an actual session is generally juggling too many things in their head to perfectly adapt to every once in a blue moon curveball that comes their way.

If you were such a "never kill a player character without the player there" hardliner that you were unquestionably willing to prioritize that over the immersion, stakes, continuity, etc. of your game then sure, you would have come up with some deus ex machina solution to save the character, or just had the enemies mysteriously lose track of them, or whatever. But for those of us who feel a need to balance preserving the player's relationship with their character against other fundamental game concerns, you had a tough situation and adopted a perfectly reasonable solution.

I'd also note that if you had come up with a solution that led to a different character dying after receiving the attacks that you blatantly intervened to save the rogue from then you might well have a worse situation on your hands.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
In my weekly Dungeon of the Mad Mage game (online via Discord/Owlbear Rodeo), everyone showed up, and we immediately proceeded to roll initiative against some starving goblins, bugbears and 2 ettins.

then once like the first round of combat was over, one of my players had to go handle family business all of a sudden...

I tend to believe that player actually had to go do something in his personal life, but it was at a real bad time because it left his rogue alone in the middle of combat against two ettins who pounded on him to death and killed him without him being there.

now. I must point out that even if the player didn’t have to leave, he would have died anyways because the ettin’s turn came before his turn, ...and the same thing would have happened anyways...

yet...somehow, it feels wrong to kill a player when he’s not there to see it go down...

am I over thinking this?
How should I break the news to this player?
should I fudge something?
man I wrong to feel like a jerk?
Am I a jerk?

Rereading this, I have to ask - how did the rogue end up alone right next to 2 ettins?

Rogues tend to be the most manueverable characters out there and if alone should be sneaking!

Was he just caught scouting and had no chance to respond?

But you said this was after the first round of combat and that everyone had rolled initiative. Presumably, some movement already took place?

It's quite confusing how the rogue found himself in such a bad situation. Also, the player not being there - did you just dictate that the player got pounded into goo? Rogues have some damage mitigation possible and depending on the party, there are lots of reactions available to prevent a character from going down or dying - especially as early as round 2.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Rereading this, I have to ask - how did the rogue end up alone right next to 2 ettins?

Rogues tend to be the most manueverable characters out there and if alone should be sneaking!

Was he just caught scouting and had no chance to respond?

But you said this was after the first round of combat and that everyone had rolled initiative. Presumably, some movement already took place?

It's quite confusing how the rogue found himself in such a bad situation. Also, the player not being there - did you just dictate that the player got pounded into goo? Rogues have some damage mitigation possible and depending on the party, there are lots of reactions available to prevent a character from going down or dying - especially as early as round 2.
I am with you that many details aren't clear but I'm not sure any of that really matters - the Ettin's may have downed him (which is fine IMO) but the hungry goblins attacking him after he was down was what killed him and that decision solely rests on the DM's shoulders. The goblins didn't have to attack the downed rogue.

the ettins knocked him out, but there were STARVING goblins who went after his body and killed him...

...even if that player was present, he wouldnt have got a turn to act before the goblins chomped at him...
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
yet...somehow, it feels wrong to kill a player when he’s not there to see it go down...

This is a great thing to talk about in a Session Zero - what is the table's policy on absent players?

am I over thinking this?
How should I break the news to this player?
should I fudge something?
man I wrong to feel like a jerk?
Am I a jerk?

It should have been (and probably still is) easy enough to address.

You said the hungry goblins would eat the PC. Sure. But not right that second. There were adventurers about! You don't stop to have lunch when the enemy (or yoru second course in the meal) is right around the corner.

So, the ettins and goblins down the PC - but they aren't dead. They are captured, and hauled off and left for later. The rest of the party can rescue them later.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
I am with you that many details aren't clear but I'm not sure any of that really matters - the Ettin's may have downed him (which is fine IMO) but the hungry goblins attacking him after he was down was what killed him and that decision solely rests on the DM's shoulders. The goblins didn't have to attack the downed rogue.

The times I've seen a character die when the player was absent - every time it's been because of something , well, stupid or uncaring done by the DM (for the character) or by the player controlling the character in addition to his own. Something like having the mage charge the big bad or the rogue not utilize his abilities etc. The one time it happened to me, (many years ago in 2e) it was because the DM had my character (a magic-user-thief) try to touch a litch (it was weird).

So when I reread the OP, it just didn't quite add up as written.

But prior experience is one of the main reasons why killing a character when the player is absent is a strict no for me. Even here, with this decidedly odd situation of the player ducking out during combat.
This is a great thing to talk about in a Session Zero - what is the table's policy on absent players?



It should have been (and probably still is) easy enough to address.

You said the hungry goblins would eat the PC. Sure. But not right that second. There were adventurers about! You don't stop to have lunch when the enemy (or yoru second course in the meal) is right around the corner.

So, the ettins and goblins down the PC - but they aren't dead. They are captured, and hauled off and left for later. The rest of the party can rescue them later.

generating new adventure opportunities - never a bad idea.
 



Klaudius Rex

Explorer
Ooops! Sux to be him... He could have had his character disengage, and run away, also- but didn't. Considering he played his turn- all alone- vs 2 ettins and a bunch of goblins, and chose to attack rather than gtfo, he really can't expect much else.

If you feel THAT guilt ridden about it, I suppose you could give him a mulligan and start up where you left off when he jetted. Unless, of course, the rest of the party finished their combat and moved up. Things will have changed then.

But if someone walks out mid game and mid combat, leaving no instructions, other than oh snap-gotta go! What can you do? Make everyone else wait? Fudging things so the thief doesn't die smacks of favoritism- which would likely annoy the other players. His choice to stand and fight vs overwhelming numbers meant he was 99% screwed regardless.

Question: Did this player eventually return that session?
No...he didn’t return...
I expect him to be back for next session
I think he had legitimate family things come up...I don’t think he rage quit
After battle, the players took a long rest at the yawning portal above and then explored more of the dungeon
 

Silver Moon

Adventurer
My original group had a rule that a PC could not die if the player was absent. We stuck with the rule, but on one occasion had a player successful argue that his character should not be dead at -10 hit points while the absent player's character beside him was still alive at -40 hit points.
 

Klaudius Rex

Explorer
Rereading this, I have to ask - how did the rogue end up alone right next to 2 ettins?

Rogues tend to be the most manueverable characters out there and if alone should be sneaking!

Was he just caught scouting and had no chance to respond?

But you said this was after the first round of combat and that everyone had rolled initiative. Presumably, some movement already took place?

It's quite confusing how the rogue found himself in such a bad situation. Also, the player not being there - did you just dictate that the player got pounded into goo? Rogues have some damage mitigation possible and depending on the party, there are lots of reactions available to prevent a character from going down or dying - especially as early as round 2.
So basically the rogue scouted ahead as usual...

but prior to battle, the party (including the rogue) let some zombie (revenant) wanderaround...possibly hoping that the zombie would kill anything in his path for them.

Well the zombie was moaning and groaning as undead tend to do and alerted the monsters ...with the rogue up ahead
Well the zombie was moaning and groaning as undead tend to do and alerted the monsters ...with the rogue up ahead
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
Recently had a family emergency call arrive, in a non-game context (yard work). Everybody else's response to the affected individual was "describe what you were going to do so we can take care of it, and get yourself to where you are needed most."

In the game context, I would be fine with POOFing the rogue away and the ettins / goblins (somewhat injured as if by a rogue) become another wave for the rest of the group to fight; if the group wins they find the rogue KO'ed on the floor.
 

IMG's when the player isnt present, the PC 'phases out' into the background of the scene or adventure.

If the dude legit had a family issue and legit needed to attend something, then personally I would have quickly done the Ettins turns (they went next anyway) knocked him unconscious and then he could have faded into the background that way.
 


Epic Threats

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