D&D 5E Advice on dealing with high level characters.

[pming]

Hiya!

To the OP, I'm not sure if this will be helpful to you or not, but anyway...

I once had my group try "high level" play in...Pathfinder, iirc. I think it was 14th? Anyway, here's the base story:

They players had their PC's and after not more than 20 minutes, had pooled their brains together to use their PC's abilities/spells to, basically, have a VERY HIGH degree of overcoming the core adventure idea. They started to tell me the 'check list'; you know, "First we do A, then B, then the cleric will use [ability] on B. Now the wizard will use x, y and z spells. Next we do C. Then, when we have him in this location [shows pre-designed death-trap kill zone], we open up with [insert list of major alpha-strikage]. OK?"

I looked at them for a couple seconds, shook my head...and then told them A doesn't work because [insert reason]. The 'leader' of the group gave that little smirkey-huff/chuckle with "Fine". I think told the group as a whole: "Look. Do you REALLY want spells, abilities and all that to work this way? I mean, I'm ok with it if you guys are". The leader said "Well, yes, obviously! We thought this out. It's cheap to just say 'no'!". To which I said something like...."Hmmm...[insert about 5 seconds of thinking]...Ok, You all wake up dead. Make new guys"

The collective look on their faces was both annoyance and confusion. I quickly spoke up before being tarred and feathered:

"Ok...here's what the NPCs did..." followed by a logical list of spells, abilities, equipment and all that which would allow the baddies to, basically, kill everyone without them having any chance what so ever.

They got the point.

What was "The Point"? The point is that the game has a built-in 'expectation of play'. It expects that everyone makes PC's that will work together, or at least not be opposed. It expects that the DM will not do what I just listed ("Rocks fall. Everyone dies"). It expects that the DM will conduct the game in a fair and impartial manner, with an eye towards "fun". And, just as importantly, it expects that Players will likewise play the game in a fair and, well, impartial manner...in a sense. It's basically the "Poison?" premise of every campaign. If the Players are all hot and heavy for using poisons at any chance they can get...then the DM should likewise do the same thing. It is, basically, the RPG campaign equivalent of "mutually assured destruction".

If the players want to "play hardball", they will loose. Every. Single. Time. Well, unless they have a crappy DM who cheapens the whole game by letting the Players and their PC's do X, Y and Z, but never lets the baddies get away with anything other than X.

So...with regard to 15th level PC's "breaking the adventure". Look at all the resources the NPC bad guys have available to them and look at their Intelligence and Wisdom scores. If they have Int and Wis scores between them all of 15 or higher...you, as DM, can be pretty sure that ANYTHING the players think of, the NPCs would/could have thought of and then countered (assuming the same resources as the PC's...probably more).

Oh, and just because "it isn't in the book", doesn't mean it doesn't exist. "Shackles of Anchoring: These magic shackles draw power from the runes inscribed in them and in/around the room/area in which they are embedded. No form of transportation will work on anyone that is Shackled (no teleportation, gating, turning ethereal, shadow-stepping, etc)". But the DM has to be careful with this or risk it basically being "No, because I said so!". It's a fine line, but nobody said that being a good DM was easy (and if they did...they're lieing).

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Mathilda]

In response to Paul Ming's post...

As a player at that table... I would be absolute OK with that end if the DM has those contingencies already written out in his or her preparation.

If that outcome was a result of just reacting to what the players stated they were going to do... then I call BS because yes in every case the DM will win because then knows what the players will do and the players will never win.

If a DM constantly C blocks all attempts that the player trying to be creative and resourceful.. there will come a point in the game as to "Why try" the DM will railroad us regardless of what we do.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

If that outcome was a result of just reacting to what the players stated they were going to do... then I call BS because yes in every case the DM will win because then knows what the players will do and the players will never win.

If a DM constantly C blocks all attempts that the player trying to be creative and resourceful.. there will come a point in the game as to "Why try" the DM will railroad us regardless of what we do.

(I knew I should have explained the situation more... LOL!)

I agree totally with you on this. A DM that doesn't want the players to 'win', who just says "No..because [insert reasons]" anytime he doesn't like it is the hallmark of one poopy DM. No argument from me on that.

Anyway, I didn't write in all the full 'story' because it would have taken too long. Suffice it to say, I didn't *actually* do that...I just used it to explain my predicament to the players. The point I was trying to make to them was that, yes, they can and DO have the power and resources to definitively 'change the world'...and totally annihilate the adventure/story at hand. For example, Tomb of Horrors. A few Earthquake spells, some Disintegration, maybe some Summoned elemental's, monsters/animals and Clairaudiance/voyance, and any number of other spells, would make short work of that adventure. The PC's, at that level, DO have the power to completely change the face of the world...in minutes. Literally. So why don't players do this all the time? It's not fun. It goes against the "expectations of playing a D&D game".

What I did with my players was explain to them that, "logically" I *could* kill them all before they even know what hit 'em. If they EVER let ANYONE live that they encounter or who sees them taking out the lackeys of the bad guys...they're done for. At 15th level, a lot of bad guys (especially NPC types), can find out pretty much everything there is to know about the PC's in a few hours. Give the NPC a day or two and that's it for the PC's. The NPC(s) can perform "The List" to kill the PC's. And if they can't/don't kill the PC's...then next time its kill everyone around them. Their friends, family...hell, the town that they are staying at. I mean, the Temple of Elemental Evil could *easily* level Homlett, and kill/enslave/animate the entire population save about three or four "major" NPC's who might be able to escape.

So, after explaining by 'fictitious example' to my players, they got it. They now all understand why high-level bad guys and good guys don't just "take over the world", and why commoners matter. Because if those good/bad guys in D&D bring all their might to bare...they may be the only ones left standing on the battlefield. The town they were trying to save and all the people in it are dead. The forest, burning. The rivers/streams, dry. Basically a blasted wasteland.

As I said...the magical equivalent of a nuclear mutual assured destruction. So...we have uber-tough guys who don't go level the town personally. That's why they send their kobold army; kobolds will kill a lot and do a lot of damage, but they are't going to turn Homlett into a crater...so the uber-tough bad guy can then get the treasure, fear, respect, or whatever his goal was. I mean, what's the point in "winning" if there's nobody left around to sing of your victories, right?

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Warmaster Horus]

I DM'd my first Tier 4 AL game last night. I've done dozens of Tier 3 games and this wasn't all that much more different, though the NPCs, locales and PCs all had more abilities/options to keep track of. I only had to backtrack an action once when I realized there were some Globes of Invulnerability in place when a PC's AOE spell went off. Otherwise it was okay, though slower than normal because there were lots of hp, spells and special abilities in play.

I would definitely say the players were challenged. One of them was disintegrated relatively early on and required a True Res to continue (expensive in both GP and time). The final battle was difficult since there were only 4 of them and two were arcane casters in an environment that was challenging - powerful NPC casters who were ready for them and lots of magic-nerfing areas to deal with. The party beat-stick was quickly Banished and the druid, who had Shapechanged into a dragon, was hamster-balled into a Wall of Force. The Wizard's Meteor Swarm was counterspelled, too. Not looking good as environmental effects were taking their toll and enemy front line fighters closed in.

The players really had to dig deep and work together to get the upper hand. Everyone had fun and no one was bored in the slightest. It was their first time playing Tier 4 as well as their PCs had just made 17th level. My impression is that high level PCs (and I have few I've played in 5e) are powerful but can still be fragile to high level threats.

 

[Mathilda]

Horus,

With all due respect... AL is a different beast altogether... the DM in AL is limited to the story that the author has wrote and most of them are very light in challenging a party of Tier 4 level unless the DM at the table prepares to amplify the lethality of the encounters. In a separate thread, I could discuss with you the lack of challenge in most of the adventures currently available.

Paul Ming,

In your response to me, it is my understanding you explained what would happen hypothetically and your party concurred with the result.. correct?

I do agree to a degree that high level play could be mutually assured destruction... but I will add alternative... high level play could be an awesome chess match between two masters and each move is surgical rather than overwhelming like a nuclear explosion. Some of my best experiences in DnD, have been the DM and trying to anticipate and plan for the party's next move as well as being a player and having the group plan what we will do next. Not to mention that spells not used as often like Non Detection and Scrying tip balances in favor of those who utilize them the most advantageously.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Horus,

With all due respect... AL is a different beast altogether... the DM in AL is limited to the story that the author has wrote and most of them are very light in challenging a party of Tier 4 level unless the DM at the table prepares to amplify the lethality of the encounters. In a separate thread, I could discuss with you the lack of challenge in most of the adventures currently available....

Fair point. However AL is the only place I've run high level PCs thus far. As a DM I have a lot of flexibility in creating challenging encounters with the tools I'm allowed and the mod itself was one that I feel doesn't pull punches. The end result is that I think challenging high level PCs is very do-able in 5e when you set your mind to it.

 

[jimmytheccomic]

So, I'm gonna go against some of the conventional wisdom here, but I LOVE high level gaming (both running and playing), and want to add my perspective.


"Save someone from a dungeon" should be absolutely trivial for high level characters. Let it be! They gate the guy out. Tell them about all the challenging things in the dungeon they skipped right past. They'll high five each other, look back on how when they were lower level they would have had to slog through it, etc.

It SUCKS when players earn these high level abilities and then don't really get to use them, or get blocked from them. Just go back to a low level game if you don't want the players to do crazy stuff. It's feels awesome for players to hit "Skip" and start really altering the setting.

What I tend to do when I run high level is, if they're on the material plane almost everything is trivial for them. The scale of the story should be expanding to the outer planes. Simple search and rescue should be beneath their attention. No more dungeons, they're moving through the corpses of dead gods, battling living planes, slaying ancient beasts that swim through the astral sea.

They feel so badass if the low level stuff is trivial, and they somehow overcome what feels like high level, epic stuff.

 

[Mathilda]

To Horus...

Most AL mods at Tier 4 need some work.... probably the one you can run out of the box is Windows to the Past.... mechanically challenging but story immersion totally sucks.... If you were playing a Harper or actively playing your alignment truly... a player would be forced into getting up from the table due to the circumstances thrust upon the player. Then to add insult to injury... the story award totally screws those players to those that forego roleplaying and just want to play the game.

The more important response to your counter point... is that what you point out is true, as DM you can go into the toolbox to add flavor but then you run into a few issues:

1. Whose definition of challenge are you catering too? Yours? AL's? The players? If the DM just follows the printed mod, that question of challenge is taken away from the DM
2. How are you going to compensate if you as DM amplify the lethality to the point it TPKs the party? Everyone has access to the adventure so when the players check, they will know the DM screwed them over
3. If you do ramp up, there are some players that will ask for additional reward due to the added risk, how will you address that issue?
4. A home game has different issues to overcome but most revolve around in trusting the DM

To Jimmy,

All that you describe is fine and good but I do not see purpose... without purpose then all you really have is high level murder hobos running around the outer planes as opposed to low level murder hobos running around on the home prime material plane. Yes you can apply challenge but over all pointless.

 

[jimmytheccomic]

To Jimmy,

All that you describe is fine and good but I do not see purpose... without purpose then all you really have is high level murder hobos running around the outer planes as opposed to low level murder hobos running around on the home prime material plane. Yes you can apply challenge but over all pointless.

Nothing about bringing in epic threats precludes having a purpose, or story.

What I'd recommend for plot inspiration is, think less "high fantasy" and more "Superhero story". A high level party isn't a team of dungeon delving adventurers, they're essentially the Justice League or the Avengers. Check out comics by Grant Morrison or Warren Ellis. Look at the climax of Guardians of the Galaxy 2, where they're trying to kill a planet. Or Avengers 2, where they're fighting an army while trying to stop a floating island from smashing the planet. This is the inspiration for high level, more than Conan or LOTR.

 

[Stalker0]

In response to Paul Ming's post...

As a player at that table... I would be absolute OK with that end if the DM has those contingencies already written out in his or her preparation.

If that outcome was a result of just reacting to what the players stated they were going to do... then I call BS because yes in every case the DM will win because then knows what the players will do and the players will never win.

If a DM constantly C blocks all attempts that the player trying to be creative and resourceful.. there will come a point in the game as to "Why try" the DM will railroad us regardless of what we do.

This is an interesting debate in terms of dm skill vs the “villian ability”.

If my villian has an int of 22 or something crazy...effectively smarter than any human thst has ever lived...you would realistically have to instantly react to your players ideas in order to pull off such an intelligence in a “realistic” fashion.