Affects of Pushing - how do the rules on this actually work ??

[Istar]

One DM sort of house ruled it, then another seemed to take on the house rule, as we didnt know at the time how it works.

But "Pushing" seems to happen quite a bit, usually the enemy, but some PC's can push at-will or on Crits, so its on the go a bit.

And 4e has lots of terrain such as pits and cliffs and fire's and all sorts of dangerous things you dont really want to go near, or off !!

So what happens when you "Push" a creature hoping to push them off a cliff, or into a solid object like a wall, we have played it as below but wouldnt mind clarification on the rules.

1. Push off Cliff (intended) - Affected creature gets a ST to attempt to hold on to edge of cliff and not be sent into the abyss, and if they make it they are prone on the square on the edge of the cliff.

2. Push into wall or solid object - Affected creature makes a ST or is knocked prone.

Is this right.

How about the strength measure of a push.
My Rogue now has a Push 7 on a crit.
If he is pushing enemy 7 squares, and said enemy is 2 away from cliff, is this any better than say if he just had a push 3, no negative for enemy based on the strength of the push ??

 

[Nichwee]

Point 1)
You have this right.

Point 2)
No effect for being pushed into a wall, save the push has to stop if blocking terrain prevents more push.

Point 3)
Push 3 or Push 7 would be the same in terms of the "strength" of push, i.e. No penalties on the ST. The only diffenece is that of the ST is failed the Push 7 has more push left if it is still usable (the terrain doesn't take the target of the oush out of LOE)

The rule is basically that forced movement into "hazardous terrain" is stoppable with a ST and going prone. No mods to the ST based on the amount of forced movement.

This is slightly annoying at times, but it stops things getting too complex - and makes "forced movement-terrain" combos a touch riskier to use (tho prone as a cost to avoid the terrain can still be worth the lost movement).

 

[the Jester]

Pushing can be very common for pcs; there's a fighter at-will (Tide of Iron) that lets you push an enemy and then shift into the space it occupied, for instance.

1. Push off Cliff (intended) - Affected creature gets a ST to attempt to hold on to edge of cliff and not be sent into the abyss, and if they make it they are prone on the square on the edge of the cliff.

Correct!

2. Push into wall or solid object - Affected creature makes a ST or is knocked prone.

Nope, you're just up against a wall. However, certain areas might have spikes in the walls, glass windows or other pokey spots that do damage if you push someone against them (IMC minotaurs tend to have metal horns poking out of the walls so they can push and impale victims against them).

How about the strength measure of a push.
My Rogue now has a Push 7 on a crit.
If he is pushing enemy 7 squares, and said enemy is 2 away from cliff, is this any better than say if he just had a push 3, no negative for enemy based on the strength of the push ??

The number of squares you are pushing someone doesn't matter. The rules are the same.

Note also that forced movement (push, pull and slide) do NOT trigger opportunity attacks.

 

[Quickleaf]

Push 3 or Push 7 would be the same in terms of the "strength" of push, i.e. No penalties on the ST. The only diffenece is that of the ST is failed the Push 7 has more push left if it is still usable (the terrain doesn't take the target of the oush out of LOE)

Hmm, this is the only point I am unclear on. You seem to be saying, "ok you push him 3 of those 7 square over the edge of the cliff, he gets a saving throw, and even if he makes it you've still got 4 squares worth of pushing left, which means 4 more saves he's got to make to avoid getting knocked off the cliff."

I only allowed one save, regardless of the strength of the forced movement. Thought that was RAW.

As a house rule I also allowed super strong pushes to sometimes break through walls if the flavor was right (eg. Push 5 into a tavern wall 2 squares and they're knocked clear thru the wall). Also I applied excess squares of push off a cliff as a penalty to the saving throw to avoid falling (eg. Push 5 off a cliff 2 squares away meant a -3 save penalty). But those are just house rules.

 

[Breaks]

Hmm, this is the only point I am unclear on. You seem to be saying, "ok you push him 3 of those 7 square over the edge of the cliff, he gets a saving throw, and even if he makes it you've still got 4 squares worth of pushing left, which means 4 more saves he's got to make to avoid getting knocked off the cliff."

I only allowed one save, regardless of the strength of the forced movement. Thought that was RAW.

As a house rule I also allowed super strong pushes to sometimes break through walls if the flavor was right (eg. Push 5 into a tavern wall 2 squares and they're knocked clear thru the wall). Also I applied excess squares of push off a cliff as a penalty to the saving throw to avoid falling (eg. Push 5 off a cliff 2 squares away meant a -3 save penalty). But those are just house rules.

No I think what they were saying is that if you push a monster 7, and it's only 3 squares to shove them off the cliff, if they fail the save and fall down the pit, you can continue to push them 4 more squares. If they fell 10 feet down a 100 fit chasm and then landed on a narrow ledge, the extra squares of pushing could attempt to push them off of said ledge, for example. The monster would get a second saving throw for being pushed off another cliff.

As any pit that matters is deep enough to generally break line of sight/effect, the fall often also ends the forced movement, but if you still have line of sight/effect after the hazard has resolved itself, you can continue the forced movement (this probably comes into play more for non-pit hazards such as campfires).

If the monster succeeds their saving throw, they fall prone in the square before the hazard, and the push ends.