Again another example of CHA as dump stat

[kirinke]

Personally, when i have to use a point-buy system to generate my characters, i use the charisma stat as my dump stat. but. and i repeat, but, i usually bump it up to at least 10, usually 11. and by thinking a bit, you can generally have all of your stats at least 10 with a few being higher end.

Stats aren't everything. An 'average' character can still acomplish quite abit.

 

[mmu1]

That's a foolish argument. Your 'golden boy' is no more absurd than:

- A character with a high dexterity being equally adept at fine motor skills (open locks), skulking in the shadows (hide), or walking a narrow beam (balance).
- A character with a high con being able to resist more physical damage (HP bonus) and concentrate better (Concentrate)
- A wise character being just as proficient at curing the sick (heal) as noticing the hidden rogue (spot) or tell when someone is lying (sense motive).

All of the stats are catch-alls for a wide variety of physical and mental qualities.

What's your point? I never argued that the D&D stat and skill system is perfect, just that Charisma is (IMO) the worst offender and the most contrived of all the stats.

You've got a system with five stats covering combat and adventuring, and one incredibly catch-all stat to cover social interaction - which is the one thing there's the least need to model, because while players certainly can't speak as if they were world-class diplomats, they can come much closer to that than to being able to jump over a 20' chasm and disembowel an Ogre. Is it surprising that people just don't feel they need it as much as the rest of the mechanics?

The thinking on most threads of this kind usually seems to be along the lines of: 1.Charisma is an important stat. 2.People are neglecting Charisma. 3. The people playing the game are defective. 4. Must find ways of making the people see the error of their ways, no matter how big a stick I'll have to use.

I prefer to make the game match the way people want to play, not the other way around.

 

[DarkMaster]

What's your point? I never argued that the D&D stat and skill system is perfect, just that Charisma is (IMO) the worst offender and the most contrived of all the stats.

You've got a system with five stats covering combat and adventuring, and one incredibly catch-all stat to cover social interaction - which is the one thing there's the least need to model, because while players certainly can't speak as if they were world-class diplomats, they can come much closer to that than to being able to jump over a 20' chasm and disembowel an Ogre. Is it surprising that people just don't feel they need it as much as the rest of the mechanics?

because they don't feel they need it doesn't mean they don't need it .
I think that the skill system is another improvement of the new version. In previous edition charisma was more a useless stat than now, because there were almost no game mechanics around it. Basically Charisma was more like alignement: a tool to roleplay. Now the rule start to define clearly that the PC is not the player on any aspect, before only the physical aspect was covered. This allow a socialy challenged person to play a highly charismatic bard as efficiently as anybody else and that is great improvement on roleplaying. Nobody ever complained that a paralysed person was able to play a 18 dex rogue why should they complain now.

I think it is because most people think that they are socially very competent and those things are hard to measure around the game table. I doubt I know somebody with 30 Diplomacy, how can I even Imagine playing an NPC with such a skills, I then rely on the game mechanic to represent the effect such a person can have with others. Also I don't like the fact that real life lawyer can bluff everybody, without investing a single skill point in bluff. Even if the player is able to convince me that buying the rusted sword would be greatly beneficial for me, his player with Diplomacy/bluff 0 won't be able to convince the NPC merchant Diplomacy 12, or even if I know that this rusted sword is worthless the highly social rogue PC will be able to convince the NPC who just started in business.

The definition of role play isn't to play the role of somebody you are not? Previous edition were allowing you to role play effectively someone with different physical stats and ability, 3.X expand that to social skills.

 

[Syntallah]

I was looking at the WotC site and read about the new character feature Gwall leader of armie. With a title like that you would expect a highly charismatic character (at least for a dwarf) that can lead people to his cause. No the only thing we get is a pseudo-leader with Charisma 6, come on. Then people wonder why their player don't put any points in charisma, the game designer do it so why shouldn't they. If I ever incorporate this guy in my campaign his CHA will be raised to at least 12.

No way this guy could lead and inspire so many warriors with such a poor charisma.

I have lamented this 'dump stat syndrome' for years. In my campaigns I raise the book price of magic and masterwork items by 150%, and apply a (Cha mod * 10)% subtraction to the cost when a PC buys something. I still have my little dumpers, but it has made some players think twice…