Age of Worms - Greyhawk or FR better?

[ToddSchumacher]

I am currently running both Age of Worms and Shacled City in the generic 'greyhawkian' world set by the BHP.

I also use action points.

And had the characters made with a 32 point buy.

And MAX hit points.

These adventure paths are TOUGH!

 

[hong]

Really, how would you go about that?

By hacking it.

I have trouble seeing D&D adventures fitting in Exalted, mechanically and thematcically.

Bah. Exalted is D&D with stunts, and therefore D&D is Exalted without stunts.

 

[jdrakeh]

Eh?

jh

By 1993 Greyhawk had ceased to be the flagship AD&D setting, the rules of said game having been altered specifically to mirror the FR setting post Time of Troubles (this is why assassins, half-orcs, and other things were removed as defualt features in AD&D 2e). It marked what many people saw (and still see) as the end of Gary Gygax's Greyhawk.

Carl Sargeant stepped in at hsi point in time, revisioning much of the setting. Sargeant's Greyhawk never achieved the same popularity as Gary Gygax's Greyhawk did in fan circles or on the commercial market, largely due to the revision of things that had been established as setting canon for the better part of two decades.

There were those who saw (and, indeed, still see) Sargeant as the best thing ever to happen to Greyhawk. That said, the fact that his involvement coincided with, not only the removal of the setting from its flagship status, but the subsequent withdraw of regular commercial support by TSR speaks volumes.

The reintroduction of Kyuss (a long dead priest only briefly mentioned in the Fiend Folio and not associated with any specific setting) as a godlike being was typical of the setting retcons made during the Sargeant era. My above comment was meant to indicate that, for many Greyhawk fans, material published during Sargeant's time at the helm is not considered canon.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the setting in either incarnation, but if I had to chose between Gygax's and Sargeant's vision of the setting, I'd choose the former as it is the Greyhawk that the majority of D&D players are familiar with.

[P.S. I may be wrong, but I believe that this is what Whizbang Dustyboots was hinting around at earlier, as well.]

 

[Snotlord]

By 1993 Greyhawk had ceased to be the flagship AD&D setting, the rules of said game having been altered specifically to mirror the FR setting post Time of Troubles (this is why assassins, half-orcs, and other things were removed as defualt features in AD&D 2e).

I believe it was the other way around. AD&D changed, and the change in FR came afterwards. 1e FR featured assassins, barbarians, cavaliers and monks.

 

[jdrakeh]

I believe it was the other way around. AD&D changed, and the change in FR came afterwards. 1e FR featured assassins, barbarians, cavaliers and monks.

Yes, I know that 1e FR contained those things. Which was my point. AD&D 2e came before the 2e FR boxed set, but just after the publication of the first Avatar Trilogy module detailing the ToT and resultant setting changes which formed the foundation of 2e FR (and which were subsequently reflected in the AD&D 2e PHB). That is, the AD&D 2e rules reflected changes to the FR setting made in the Avatar Trilogy of adventure modules.

Now, that said, it's certainly possible (even likely) that, behind closed doors, the rules were altered before the setting was, but publically the setting alterations were unveiled first and the system changes second. It's one of the reasons that the ToT sits so wrong with many FR 1e fans - they saw it as a weak justification on TSR's part to alter the rule set in the ways that they did (i.e., removing assassins, half-orcs, certain spells, etc).

 

[Snotlord]

Ok, it sounded like FR caused 2e and the end of classic Greyhawk. I clearly got it wrong

 

[jdrakeh]

Ok, it sounded like FR caused 2e and the end of classic Greyhawk. I clearly got it wrong

No, it didn't cause either of those things. The adoption of FR as TSR's flagship setting for AD&D 2e just happened to coincide with the revisioning of Greyhawk and that setting's subsequent decline in popularity, but it didn't cause it.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I must provide correction on two points, James.

The design notebook articles in Dragon leading up to the release of 2e make it rather clear that the decision to design 2e the way it was (including the elimination of the assassin, cavalier, barbarian, etc.) was a decision of the 2e design team, who (with the exception of Jeff Grubb) had nothing to do with FR. Moreover, the decision to redesign 2e was made before the creation of the Avatar trilogy.

Finally, although the Avatar modules were released before the 2e PHB (actually, contemporaneously with the 2e PHB, since we played through those modules using the 2e PHB and DMG), the Forgotten Realms Adventures hardback, which introduced the setting changes following the Time of Troubles, was released substantially after the 2e books had come out. The introductory section of the Forgotten Realms Adventures hardback states that the narrative changes to FR (mass slaying of the assassins, changes to magic) were specifically intended to bring the setting into line with 2e rules, not the other way around.

Also, while I agree that setting support for Greyhawk was largely abandoned come 2e, I don't think that FR was really the default setting; 2e was a setting bonanza, with no specific setting really being preferred. We had Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Hollow World, and finally Planescape, each of which had almost as much support material as FR. True, with the near-abandonment of Greyhawk, FR became the most "standard" of these settings, but I don't think one can really point to a default 2e setting.

 

[ssampier]

I'm not familiar wtih Greyhawk, but I can say both probably work okay. I'm not sure about Eberron, though.

I'm personally runnning mine in the Wilderlands. The "Free City" is Bard's Gate. I haven't decided on a map yet, though.

 

[Ripzerai]

In Greyhawk why wouldn't Tenser join in the final battle?

Mordenkainen could prevent him (in the name of the Balance) by distracting or even blackmailing him. Or a ruthless DM could just kill him off; there could even be a subplot where the PCs are blamed for his murder.