Alchemical item bonus to hit

[AbdulAlhazred]

It also allows for using a level 5 flask that dazes on the cheap, with no reason to use any other level flask. At epic tier, that might as well be a daze-at-will.

And class powers are supposed to be superior to alchemical attacks. Alchemy is supposed to suppliment a character's repertoire by offering temporary access to things they don't normally have. It's not supposed to compete with simply having the attack in the first place.

Right, you have to guard against any solution that makes a level 1 item effective for a high level PC. OTOH in general such uses aren't a great option. They could be used in some rather unfortunate ways though.

I agree, Alchemical items, and other consumables in general, are more of a supplement that lets a party that say lacks a wizard to blow up some minions or assert a bit of control on a target in a critical situation. As such though I think the accuracy of the items needs to be high enough to make them pretty reliable. Level+3 really isn't all that great. While in theory baseline PC accuracy might be level+4 or so, in practice it is usually quite a bit higher, and especially at higher levels. Remember, Alchemical attacks don't benefit from ANY buffs at all. They will benefit from debuffs, but in general I think level + 5 or level + 6 would be a more useful accuracy. Having to pay good gold for an item that often won't hit at all and who's damage is at best mediocre certainly isn't encouraging players to use these items.

 

[mneme]

[MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]: I think level+3 is fine -- remember, monster defenses scale strictly with level -- so if it hits at level 1, it will hit at level 30. Sure, debuffs scale past level -- but so do player buffs, so those balance out. Also, don't forget that if a player -wants- to quasi-frequently use alchemical items (rather than using them as a last ditch extra power or three that generally don't get used), they can boost the chance for them to hit considerably (for a considerable investment). Alchemy gloves grant a+2 item bonus, the Alchemist Savant PP grants another +2, and +Int when you spend an AP, and Alchemical Launcher [arms] provides a +1 item bonus (if you're a living construct).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

@AbdulAlhazred : I think level+3 is fine -- remember, monster defenses scale strictly with level -- so if it hits at level 1, it will hit at level 30. Sure, debuffs scale past level -- but so do player buffs, so those balance out. Also, don't forget that if a player -wants- to quasi-frequently use alchemical items (rather than using them as a last ditch extra power or three that generally don't get used), they can boost the chance for them to hit considerably (for a considerable investment). Alchemy gloves grant a+2 item bonus, the Alchemist Savant PP grants another +2, and +Int when you spend an AP, and Alchemical Launcher [arms] provides a +1 item bonus (if you're a living construct).

Yeah, all of those enhancements are as you say rather expensive. One requires using a PP (you can also use a theme), another fills your hands slot, and the launcher is largely irrelevant as it applies only to a race that is at least nominally setting specific to Ebberon. Not that those should be ignored, but they don't address the central point, which is that Alchemical items as a backup to other means are just not really reliable enough, certainly not considering the cost. Also, all of these means are only really available to higher level PCs in general (admittedly the gloves are a level 6 item, so theoretically you could get them at low heroic, but only if you can get the DM to drop them and in that case will displace some other more useful item drop).

And again, the scalability is not relevant. Level+3 is low accuracy. It is low accuracy at level 1 and it will remain low accuracy at all levels beyond that. So in fact the scalability simply demonstrates that the items don't actually get better. Now, I don't think they SHOULD get better and I'm OK with that, but since buffs generally won't help make them better even conditionally that's another strike against them. Debuffs are fine, you can debuff a monster so you get effectively a bonus which is as good as any other power might get, but it still means the ways you can conditionally enhance your item's attacks are limited. Given that these attacks not only cost action economy, but ALSO gold, it seems like at the very least they should be reasonably accurate. That's why I suggest level+5 or so. I wouldn't even be averse to level+6 to level+8, though I don't think that's necessary, +5 is good enough. If you do really want higher than that then you can get the gloves etc.

The rather so-so damage output I'm not quite so worried about, though I think it would be nice if all alchemical items had a bit more than just damage. The ones that are doing just mediocre damage are currently pretty much worthless, even as backups to powers. I guess maybe they're usable as items for bad guys to use against the party, but I can't imagine any character of any level bothering with those items.

 

[mneme]

and the launcher is largely irrelevant as it applies only to a race that is at least nominally setting specific to Ebberon.

Actually, like the Swordmage, the Warforged is a core rules element that happens to get its player writeup in a campaign source. Note that warforged monsters appear in MM/MM2, and warforged have racial support in Divine Power. That said, technically, all the "living construct" stuff also works with shardminds. Might look silly, but easy enough to justify.

think they SHOULD get better and I'm OK with that, but since buffs generally won't help make them better even conditionally that's another strike against them. Debuffs are fine, you can debuff a monster so you get effectively a bonus which is as good as any other power might get, but it still means the ways you can conditionally enhance your item's attacks are limited.

Huh? Pretty much any buff will work (items won't, but as defined you can get your own items, take a (very good) theme, etc). The counteracting element to monster debuffs, IMO, is temporary buffs, and those don't generally care what kind of attack you make.

The rather so-so damage output I'm not quite so worried about, though I think it would be nice if all alchemical items had a bit more than just damage. The ones that are doing just mediocre damage are currently pretty much worthless, even as backups to powers. I guess maybe they're usable as items for bad guys to use against the party, but I can't imagine any character of any level bothering with those items.

I think the damage should be higher, but their current uses is for when the damage type is crucially important or the burst nature is -- minion clearers when that's what the party needs and you don't have any burst attacks left (or at all), ranged attacks to make when your immoblized, etc. Not something I'd expect to spend significant gold on, but if I had the theme or the item dropped I'd use the item occasionally with some classes.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Actually, like the Swordmage, the Warforged is a core rules element that happens to get its player writeup in a campaign source. Note that warforged monsters appear in MM/MM2, and warforged have racial support in Divine Power. That said, technically, all the "living construct" stuff also works with shardminds. Might look silly, but easy enough to justify. Huh?

Nothing wrong with it, but it is a rather limited use thing, you can't really seriously say "Alchemical items are fine because this one (ok 2) race(s) can get a bonus to use them". It is something to consider, but see below.

Pretty much any buff will work (items won't, but as defined you can get your own items, take a (very good) theme, etc). The counteracting element to monster debuffs, IMO, is temporary buffs, and those don't generally care what kind of attack you make.

I am probably being unclear:

When I say buffs I mean buffs to attacks or similar things that enhance the party's attacks in some way. When I say debuffs I mean debuffs to the monsters which favor the players, which are fairly close to the same thing, but there is an important difference:

Virtually all buffs to attacks will NOT WORK with Alchemical items. If the buff is to the character it has no effect, the item is making the attack, not the PC. If the buff is a general party-wide buff it is ambiguous. Again the item is making the attack. Is an item a member of the party? Is it eligible to receive these kinds of buffs? This hasn't ever been clarified. I'll grant that in general this will be the way it is going to be run, but the point stands in general, AT LEAST half of all buffs are not useful. Debuff to the monsters OTOH are going to be more useful.

Now, there's a flip side to this. A debuff to the PC won't affect his alchemical item attacks. That could be useful in some limited situations. So overall Alchemical items mostly on balance just miss out on a subset of buffs. Still those are a common type of buff and it can be problematic. It certainly doesn't contribute to the functionality of these items.

I think the damage should be higher, but their current uses is for when the damage type is crucially important or the burst nature is -- minion clearers when that's what the party needs and you don't have any burst attacks left (or at all), ranged attacks to make when your immoblized, etc. Not something I'd expect to spend significant gold on, but if I had the theme or the item dropped I'd use the item occasionally with some classes.

Yeah, I just don't believe that a 'backup' type item is something you would want to rate feats, items, themes, and PPs much on. People have much better things to spend those on than "hey, maybe in the 3 cases per tier when I'm in this odd situation I'm going to use Alchemy, so I better spend a feat on it..." People already jealously horde bonuses of all types that work for them all the time and constantly wish they had more. Very few players are going to drop the Alchemist theme on their character or grab Alchemy Gloves for that one oddball situation.

So I agree with you about the times that these things are used. I just observe that those are not situations people are going to spend ANY resources optimizing, even if you're a warforged or a shard mind you're quite unlikely to get a launcher. Obviously there is going to be the guy that will make his character an optimized alchemist, but that's a bit of a different situation (and as alchemy items are now not really a very effective option, though fun).

So I still say at least make the things pretty accurate, commensurate with other 'backup weapon' type attacks. Consider, a fighter can toss a Javelin and at level one will get +6 (with an 18 STR), or toss some alchemical item at +3. It may be worth it, but then remember that the Javelin marks and costs almost nothing to throw, an alchemical fire or whatnot is less accurate, doesn't mark, may miss out on some buffs, and on top of all that costs a modest amount of gold.

 

[mneme]

NO, I think you're just being incorrect.

When you use a power from an item, you are still making the attack, not the item. Anything that boosts your attack rolls will boost your attack rolls on the item; anything that boosts your damage that applies to the item (keeping in mind that it's neither a weapon nor an impliment attack of course). The reason you don't get half level on the item isn't because your'e not making the attack (you are); it's because only the STAT vs DEFENSE formulation gets half level added into it; +NUM vs DEFENSE does not.

So when you use an alchemical item, the +7 to attack and damage rolls you're getting from the friendly Battle Engineer will add +7 to the attack and damage rolls of your item; combat advantage will give you a to-hit bonus with alchemical items, and so on. It's just that the base to-hit is +N (where N is stated on the tin) rather than Stat+1/2 Level (with, likely, feat and enhancement bonuses added in due to keywords).

Also, alchemical items -will- mark, and that's a +4 vs Reflex (which is identical to-hit to that +6 vs AC).

I think your arguments about backup weapons breaks down somewhat once you realize you -can- apply most buffs to alchemical items--not that they're a fantasic option, but the "just in case, I want a fireball charm so I can stop a troll from regenerating" thing works fine; in that mode, you don't bother taking alchemy specific buffs at all, but drop in whatever bonuses you need to make sure your clutch attack hits. Since alchemical items are cheap for an attack of their level if you don't use them (or should be), but expensive if you use them frequently, just investing some money [or not selling off treasure to have an alchemical reserve is a potentially useful gamble.

Also, what's your goal here? I mean, at 26th level, an alchemical item's base to hit is +29. A level 26 monster seems to average at a 38 reflex. So, just for buying an item, you're hitting on a 9 before counting for buffs or debuffs -- and that's (with the damage items) damage on a miss. How much better do you want to get than > 50%?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

NO, I think you're just being incorrect.

When you use a power from an item, you are still making the attack, not the item. Anything that boosts your attack rolls will boost your attack rolls on the item; anything that boosts your damage that applies to the item (keeping in mind that it's neither a weapon nor an impliment attack of course). The reason you don't get half level on the item isn't because your'e not making the attack (you are); it's because only the STAT vs DEFENSE formulation gets half level added into it; +NUM vs DEFENSE does not.

So when you use an alchemical item, the +7 to attack and damage rolls you're getting from the friendly Battle Engineer will add +7 to the attack and damage rolls of your item; combat advantage will give you a to-hit bonus with alchemical items, and so on. It's just that the base to-hit is +N (where N is stated on the tin) rather than Stat+1/2 Level (with, likely, feat and enhancement bonuses added in due to keywords).

Also, alchemical items -will- mark, and that's a +4 vs Reflex (which is identical to-hit to that +6 vs AC).

I think your arguments about backup weapons breaks down somewhat once you realize you -can- apply most buffs to alchemical items--not that they're a fantasic option, but the "just in case, I want a fireball charm so I can stop a troll from regenerating" thing works fine; in that mode, you don't bother taking alchemy specific buffs at all, but drop in whatever bonuses you need to make sure your clutch attack hits. Since alchemical items are cheap for an attack of their level if you don't use them (or should be), but expensive if you use them frequently, just investing some money [or not selling off treasure to have an alchemical reserve is a potentially useful gamble.

Also, what's your goal here? I mean, at 26th level, an alchemical item's base to hit is +29. A level 26 monster seems to average at a 38 reflex. So, just for buying an item, you're hitting on a 9 before counting for buffs or debuffs -- and that's (with the damage items) damage on a miss. How much better do you want to get than > 50%?

Yeah, I don't agree.. The attack is being made by the item, not the character. I see nothing in the wording of the rules for alchemy that indicates otherwise. In cases where the character is attacking VIA something, such as summons it is clearly stated as such and the attack roll is not fixed. I've yet to see your interpretation defended in a rules debate and I've answered a few 1000 questions over on Q&A in my time, so I've got a pretty good handle on how 4e rules work. I don't think your interpretation is meritless and I could imagine perhaps CS or an FAQ coming out in support of it, but going by pure RAW without any other guidance, I think this is just not correct.

 

[mneme]

I have no idea where you're drawing this from. Let's look at alchemist's fire:

Power (Consumable * Fire): Standard Action. Make an attack: Area burst 1 within 10; +4 vs. Reflex; on a hit, deal 1d6 fire damage; on a miss, deal half damage.

Who is making the attack?

When you use a power from an item, you use the power from the item, just as you would your own powers.

Under your interpretation, Alchemist's gloves wouldn't even work.

Also, I don't have rules compendium at work, but look at page 226 of ph1. It's clearly stated that magic item powers follow all the same rules as other powers (except where specifically excepted).

Summons (but not conjurations) are an explicit exception to how usage usually works -- while you use powers through them, your temporary bonuses don't affect the summons. But normally, when you use a power, you use the power.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah, I don't agree.. The attack is being made by the item, not the character.

Items aren't creatures, and cannot make attacks.

The character is using the item's power, item's powers don't use themselves. Who makes an attack is determined primarily by who is using the power that attacks. The secondary case is summoning, where the summoning uses the power in question, but the keyword itself explicitly states the player is still making the attack.

 

[LightPhoenix]

On the other hand, a level 1 item that makes a level 30 thrower a total klutz doesn't make much sense either.

I wouldn't describe it as being a klutz, I would describe it as the item being ineffective against the target. A weaker monster might actually take burns from weak Alchemist's Acid. A stronger one dodges better, shrugs off the pain, has tough hide, rapidly wipes it off, and so forth. Now, when you upgrade that to an incredibly strong acid, that eats through stuff quickly, is a lot more acidic, splashes a little better, and so on.

It's like the difference between nitric acid and fluorosulfonic acid - it's not in the delivery, it's in the strength.