Alignment - Action As Intent

[buzz]

But let's say that a paladin saves a man's life from highwaymen, only to find out later that the highwaymen were really soldiers of a holy order in disguise, trying to dispatch a glammered lich-lord? To some degree, the paladin is now partly responsible for the subsequent zombie outbreak; but has he betrayed his principles?

The thing to keep in mind is that you have to ground hypothetical examples in genuine play. In the above bait-and-switch situation (which assumes the paladin's player never thought to Detect Evil and discover the identity of the disguised lich ), the DM knows that the player of the paladin was acting on the data available at the time, i.e., that the DM was presenting some ruffians assaulting an innocent traveler. The player had their paladin take action, and it was an action that a Good and Lawful character would take. Ergo, no foul.

Now, recognizing the deception, we've got the seed for another adventure as the paladin joins the soldiers in their efforts to stop the zombies...

 

[buzz]

I disagree with this lying stealing cheating for the sake of lying stealing cheating is something that good people do not do.

By the book, it's not something that Lawful Good characters do. Not on any regular basis, at least.

A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Some might argue that wasting two lives is more evil than wasting one.

"Why the didn't you stop them, John? Because then you'd be dead, too, ."

McClain may not have been a paladin, but he was Good. You do not have to die for nothing if there is a chance to live for something.

 

[Nifft]

Some might argue that wasting two lives is more evil than wasting one.

Others would claim that miracles occur, and the gods help those who help ... themselves? Err. You get what I mean.

Dramatic stories require fighting against overwhelming odds every now and again (RAW = 5% of encounters).

- - -

However, in this case, he's not required to slay the dragon. He's required to try to save the girl. Specific method is subject to creativity!

Cheers, -- N

 

[buzz]

Some might argue that wasting two lives is more evil than wasting one.

I'm not sure I see how a paladin's efforts to stop an evil dragon is a "waste."

Remember, when discussing alignment, you're not talking about real-world concepts of good and evil. You're talking about alignment descriptors called "Good" and "Evil" (and "Lawful," "Chaotic," and "Neutral"). It's admittedly confusing, but they are not the same as their real-world moral/philosophical/religious counterparts.

 

[Halivar]

Some might argue that wasting two lives is more evil than wasting one.

Ah, but there was a chance he could have done it. A lucky stroke, or divine intervention, or something. Risking failure, even to death, for the sake of a noble cause is always portrayed as "good" in epic high-fantasy (and real-life, IMHO).

"If you fail to try, you're trying to fail."

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Ah, but there was a chance he could have done it. A lucky stroke, or divine intervention, or something. Risking failure, even to death, for the sake of a noble cause is always portrayed as "good" in epic high-fantasy (and real-life, IMHO).

"If you fail to try, you're trying to fail."

Dunno, what level paladin are we talking about here?

At some point you will see evils you cannot stop, defeat or change right now. At some point the chance of divine intervention is basicly the same if you are involved or not. At that point, you go for bigger help, find a way to turn yourself into bigger help, look for a way to attack the larger problem with your own resources, etc. But I'd quit a campaign in a heartbeat if a DM depaladined me for not committing "suicide by dragon".

 

[buzz]

At some point you will see evils you cannot stop, defeat or change right now. At some point the chance of divine intervention is basicly the same if you are involved or not. At that point, you go for bigger help, find a way to turn yourself into bigger help, look for a way to attack the larger problem with your own resources, etc. But I'd quit a campaign in a heartbeat if a DM depaladined me for not committing "suicide by dragon".

On this, we agree, KB.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I disagree with this lying stealing cheating for the sake of lying stealing cheating is something that good people do not do. I buy that thief who steals to survive or a spy who lies to gain information can be good. Because of the intent the reason they are going what they do.

I also don't think a person who is chaotic good lies and cheats and steals for no reason if they do I don't consider them good chaotic is not a get out of jail free card that allows you to be good yet do anything you want without regard of how it effects other people.


Kender are not exactly thieves they find things there intent is not to to deprive someone else of an item and sell it for profit. And if the item is needed or commented on they will pull it out and glady give it back saying they found it and where holdong onto it for safe keeping.

Like I said I judge intent. In order of the stick I judge Belkar to be evil he doesn't just defend himeslf he glorifies in making other creatures suffer that is not the same as someone who kills to defend himself or his people.

Well, I'm just taking the idea from the SRD on good/evil and law chaos

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.

By those definitions, I see lying, cheating and stealing as clearly being issues of law/chaos rather than ones of good and evil. If the lying, cheating and stealing is intended to harm someone else, then it would fall into the realm of evil. If it is intended to just make your life easier, then I say it suggests the acts themselves are not evil.

 

[Halivar]

At some point you will see evils you cannot stop, defeat or change right now. At some point the chance of divine intervention is basicly the same if you are involved or not. At that point, you go for bigger help, find a way to turn yourself into bigger help, look for a way to attack the larger problem with your own resources, etc. But I'd quit a campaign in a heartbeat if a DM depaladined me for not committing "suicide by dragon".

I agree with everything you say. I also think there are matters of such urgency that these smart options are not available. The given example was a dragon about to eat a girl. In this case, the decision to go get help is a decision to allow (I know "allow" is a strong word to use with an ancient red dragon) the girl to be eaten without resistance.

I've had paladins that have had to retreat from fights. There's no shame in it (well, maybe there is, but it's almost bearable). But what most defines a character's morality and ethos (IMO) are not the situations where the solutions are obvious ("go get help"), but rather when urgency is high, time is short, and death is almost certain. But then, that's a regular gaming session for me, so take it as you will.