Alignment - Action As Intent

[Fifth Element]

Vampires are always evil. They can rescue orphans from burning buildings and kittens out of trees until the end of time, and it won't help a bit. They'll still be evil.

Um, no. An evil vampire would not rescue the orphans, because he's evil. If you have a vampire who makes a habit of saving orphans and kittens, he's not evil. Since all vampires are evil per RAW, then no vampire would do such a thing, without a serious ulterior motive.

Same sort of thing for a paladin's alignment restriction. Why does a paladin character have to be LG? Because only a LG character would become a paladin. It's not an artificial restriction, it's a self-selecting mechanism.

 

[Fifth Element]

In a universe where returning from the dead is merely a daily resource to manage, murder needs a bit of re-definition. One could, indeed, spend a year dead just for tax reasons.

I think I'm nicking this for my sig. I'm a tax accountant in real life - that's brilliant advice.

 

[Alzrius]

Um, no. An evil vampire would not rescue the orphans, because he's evil.

Hey, orphans are valuable sources of fresh blood, and there's no one who cares when they vanish!

 

[Fifth Element]

Hey, orphans are valuable sources of fresh blood, and there's no one who cares when they vanish!

...which would be that ulterior motive I mentioned. "Rescuing" orphans to drink their blood is pretty clearly evil, I think.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And if they did just decide to have the paladin charge ahead into certain doom, well, that's heroic and Good, too. Turning that around on them ("Arrogance is evil, too!") is just being a jerk, honestly.

Hmm.

Hypothetical situation.

We have a hundred innocent people, and a BBEG, behind bulletproof glass.

Ninety-nine of the innocents, and the BBEG, are wearing explosive collars. You're in a booth with a hundred buttons.

The BBEG explains through the glass that in a few minutes, he's going to shoot the uncollared innocent, and then set the other ninety-nine free.

Each button is hooked up to a collar, but you don't know which. One of the hundred buttons will kill the BBEG before he can shoot anyone.

Do you consider it 'heroic and good' to start pressing buttons in the hope that you'll get the BBEG before you kill too many of the collared innocents?

Is this much different to the dragon scenario - long odds against actually saving the sacrifice, with a certainty of more innocents dying if you fail in the attempt?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Um, no. An evil vampire would not rescue the orphans, because he's evil.

This is where I bring out the Xena example.

We have a person who has rampaged across continents, leading an army that pillages and slaughters all in its path, and who glories in violence and misery. She is evil.

And then, one day, she has a revelation - whether it be through a conversation that strikes a chord, or an orphaned child who sparks a memory, or a divinely-inspired dream... it doesn't matter. What's important is that she's decided to turn it all around, and serve as a protector of the innocent, and fight evil wherever she finds it, etc, etc. And she's sincere about it.

Right now - after her revelation, but before she's changed out of her spikey black armour - what is her alignment?

In my experience, people's answers fall into three categories:

1. She's still evil. Alignment is a record of your actions, and so far she's taken lots of evil actions, but no good actions. In time, perhaps she can climb back up through neutral towards good, redeeming her soul through good works.

2. She's neutral. She can't be considered evil any more, because she's repented - faced with a moral choice, she'd choose the good one. But a good alignment has to be earned through action, so she has some distance to go.

3. She's good. Alignment indicates someone's inclination - it serves as a guide to how they would act in a given situation. Given a moral choice, she'd choose the good one... therefore her alignment is good.

If you have two people who give two different answers to the question, it's very difficult to come to a consensus on a question of alignment, because to them alignment represents two completely different things.

-Hyp.

 

[green slime]

There are two differences:

1/ As you say, you can't get away with an intent-based justification. If this is already the RAW, than great, but it's not how some groups play.

2/ The price of failure. If your declared actions are in accord with saving the girl, you get credit, even if you don't actually succeed in saving the girl.

Cheers, -- N

So! In order to be good, I only need to declare actions that are in accord with an attempt to save the girl, no matter how feeble the attempt, nor whether or not I choose a circuitious route over a direct route? Even though, my intent is not to save the girl?

*rubs hands together* Excellent! Mwahahahaha!

Trying to remove intent from the equation is futile imo. I firmly believe that it is up to the DM to explain to his players, prior to the game, what is acceptable, and what is not, and also to give a player fair warning prior to undertaking actions, that conflict with their stated alignment. By fair warning, I mean taking time out to explain why, not just "Do you really want to do that?" Of course it is still ultimately up to the player to decide his actions, but at least then there will be little doubt as to the in-game consequences.

Yes, this may mean a debate ensues in the middle of the game, and that is always disrupting to the flow of the moment. In the long run, however, I believe that it makes for a much smoother game, as it creates a greater understanding of the "universe" as run by the DM.

IMX, the more controversial actions are generally debated in the group as a whole anyway, prior to putting the plan into action. This means it is not so difficult to gauge intent, as it may first seem.

 

[green slime]

In a universe where returning from the dead is merely a daily resource to manage, murder needs a bit of re-definition. One could, indeed, spend a year dead just for tax reasons.

Cheers, -- N

Not in Sweden. They'll tax you for that too!

 

[Maldor]

Stuff like this is why i like classes without alignment restrictions
my fav is the wizard
Good, Bad I'm the guy with 10d6 of flaming whop-ass

 

[Flynn]

Stuff like this is why i like classes without alignment restrictions
my fav is the wizard
Good, Bad I'm the guy with 10d6 of flaming whop-ass

Or you could shift to Allegiances from D20 Modern instead...

Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress,
Flynn