Alignment Alternatives

[TeeSeeJay]

Friendly suggestion, oh mighty Oz Pimp: maybe an example on that page of what would warrant a virtue increase?

I like the benifits you get if you get to rank 5. Very Pendragon-y.

Well, when you buy spell components from the blind woman and you actually pay full price, you get a point of honesty. Letting a fleeing foe leave the field of battle nets you a point of compassion.

 

[Ace]

Re: Re: Alignment Alternatives

Not quite an "alternative" but something different I did in a game once was make alignment more important.

Instead of Gods, the campaign world had "forces" of law, chaos, balance, good, and evil, that were as potent and real as anthropomorphic deities.

Each "force" had a set of 3 values, such as good=truth,love,courage; evil=doubt,contempt,self. Balance took all the values and combined them, such as truth+doubt=skepticism, love+contempt=compromise.

good and evil didn't play as black and white concepts, because the core of the ethics system allowed that "evil" could be productive and necessary. Unchecked Love, for instance, would lead to Martyrdom, just as unchecked Contempt would lead to Hatred. The concept of Balance (neutrality in alignment terms) was very important to the world.

When the players were into it, it worked out very well. The character core ended up being more about ethics than morals, which I think is a concept close enough to the "alternative" system you're discussing.

The idea for this came from Ultima 7 part 2 (the computer game), and I lifted the law, chaos, and balance stuff straight from there. It was the game that put a different twist on the standard Ultima virtues.

I've got the whole system written up if anyone's interested.

I am. How about posting it?

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

I've adopted Monte Cook's variant alignment system from the Book of Hallowed Might...

-Zarrock

 

[carpedavid]

The opposite direction...

I've actually gone the opposite direction in my campaign and removed alignment entirely. I still make use of it as a role-playing tool, but I've removed the concept of law, chaos, good, and evil as actual cosmic forces.

As might be expected, this has required some retooling of game mechanics: For example, paladins don't have to be good, but they do have to follow a strict code of conduct. They have a detect enemy ability instead of a detect evil ability, and a general smite ability instead of smite evil.

All of the Protection from Evil/Good/Law/Chaos spells have changed into a general Protection spell, and divinations that detect alignment simply don't exist.

I've even gone so far as to construct my cosmology without any direct references to Good (big G) and Evil (big E). So there are no "devils" that are pure evil or "angels" that are pure good. Just a lot of creatures trying to further their own agendas. It just so happens that one of those agendas happens to be condusive to the growth of civilization and an increase in the quality of life for intelligent species, and is therefore regarded as good (little g) by the civilized world, with the competing agendas regarded as bad (little b).

At any rate, the religions on the world certianly do have their own versions of morality, but they do not have a specific in-game effect that I'm interested in tracking.

 

[jester47]

The Moral Meter Mechanic

I don't use an alternate system of alignment, however I don't use the system as it is presented. I have experiemented with a few, but they all seem to have the same problem. They all operate off of deed but do not count for intent. However the other side of the moral meter mechanic is what happens when you tie game effects to that mechanic. Changing the mechanic becomes a lot of work.

So, I got to thinking about it. What if alignment had nothing to do with actions (or vary little) and dealt more with the idea of reasons, intent, and upbringing?

Then it dawned on me that oftentimes good people do bad things with the best of intentions and bad people do good things with the worst of intentions. So in my games:

Alignment indicates the internal reasoning for actions rather than a meter for which to measure those actions by.

So you get lines like "Your quest is pure but your reasons are not." as the result of a know alignment spell. Or "He was a great fighter, and always strove in the name of Helm to protect the weak, but alas he was never a paladin as his true intentions were questionable."

This allows you to keep the spell system, but also allows the players to have a very dynamic party when it comes to alignment.

Now this is for the day to day stuff. Alignments can still change based on certain very profound actions. These may or may not be obvious based on the character. A lawful good character performing a heinous and selfish crime probably would be grounds for an alignment shift. However the same character commiting a minor misdemeanor in the order of an adventure is not.

I find that this system works the best, and actually causes less hassle without axing or tweaking the whole system.

Aaron.

 

[TeeSeeJay]

I've had some requests to post this, so here it is. This is the description of the Five Force system I mentioned above, and the ways in which they interact:

Goodness
Those who walk the Light Path believe the ends justify the means when it comes to championing goodness, kindness, and compassion. They will support government only if the government is inherently good. They despise despots, but can see the good in a benevolent dictator, even if his policies aren't necessarily the best practices.

The force of Goodness incorporates three principles: Truth, Love, and Courage.

Truth is the objective reality, that which is not false.

Love is the empathic bond that unites the self to all others.

Courage is the will to struggle, for beliefs and for others.

Order
Those who walk the Straight Path recognize the authority of law and order. Whether the law be harsh or mild, it is their duty to uphold it, no matter the cost or popular perception. If the execution of "traitors" who may be innocent is necessary to uphold the law, followers of Order will not hesitate to carry out their instructions.

Order is conceived of three principles: Ethicality, Discipline, and Logic.

Ethicality is the belief that there is great value in abiding by rules of conduct

Discipline is the drive to complete a task and avoid the distractions that will prevent its completion.

Logic permits clear, reasoned thought, free from any instinctual biases.

Balance
Followers of the Narrow Path care not a whit about Good or Evil, Law or Chaos, but think the four peripheral forces must be kept in check to protect the people of the world. An imbalance in the forces could result in people's rights being trampled for the sake of the dominant philosophy. An Evil man would have no place in a Good society, and would be persecuted beyond what he deserves. While the man is Evil, the followers of Balance believe he has his place and must be allowed to play his hand in life.

Balance is the most complex of the forces, keeping in check the other four in its place of convergence of the two planes of thought.

Three Principles of Balance are formed by the intersection of Chaos and Order.

Tolerance and Ethicality combine to form Harmony, the ability to be at peace with oneself, other individuals, and the world.

Enthusiasm and Discipline combine to form Dedication, that which permits one to surmount obstacles and lead others.

Emotion and Logic combine to form Rationality, the ability to comprehend life and understand the world around us.

An additional three Principles are formed by the intersection of Goodness and Evil.

Truth and Doubt combine to form Skepticism, a healthy way to separate fact from fiction.

Love and Contempt combine to form Compromise, a way to settle an argument in a way that benefits or placates both sides.

Courage and Self combine to form Esteem, the recognition that personal beliefs are worthwhile pursuits.

Chaos
Personal liberty and freedom are the things the follower of the Crooked Path seek. Law and Order only serve to get in the way of a person's will, and whether that will is good or evil is of no concern. A kingdom may be a kind and gentle place to live, but if its strict laws and ordinances get in the way of a man's freedom, the follower of Chaos will have no part in it and will do what he can to affect change.

The Force of Chaos is comprised of the three principles of Tolerance, Enthusiasm, and Emotion.

Tolerance is that which encourages the acceptance of all things.

Enthusiasm is the energy that allows one to perform great tasks.

Emotion is the ability to perceive those feelings that come from the heart, as opposed to those from the mind.

Evil
The Dark Path is walked by the fiendish, who seek personal glory and gratification, no matter the cost. Whether there be law, or lack of law, the Evil man will do what he can to further his own ends, inside or outside the civic framework. The Evil man sees everything as a means to an end, and damn the consequences to himself or others. Everything blocking his path is but a challenge to overcome, for he will prevail.

Evil is supported by the three Principles of Doubt, Contempt, and Self.

Doubt is the ability to take things with a grain of salt, to prevent wanton acceptance of ideas that may be false or misleading.

Contempt is the ability to oppose people or ideas.

Self is the preservation of the self above others.

The Importance of Balance
Without Balance to temper the Forces' affect on one another, or if one Force becomes overly powerful, the Principles behind those forces become twisted:

Chaos without Order
Tolerance without Ethicality = Anarchy, a lack of standards of conduct.

Enthusiasm without Discipline = Wantonness, actions without self-restraint.

Emotion without Logic = Insanity, the inability to overcome emotional impulses with rational thought.

Order without Chaos
Ethicality without Tolerance = Prejudice, a disrespect for the beliefs and rights of others.

Discipline without Enthusiasm = Apathy, a spirit of hopelessness that prevents positive action.

Logic without Emotion = Ruthlessness, self-advancing actions taken without regard to the wants or needs of others.

Goodness without Evil
Truth without Doubt = Blind Faith, the acceptance of all things on faith, some of which may be false or misleading.

Love without Contempt = Martyrdom, the absence of the ability to help others, or to see where others have gone wrong and need guidance.

Courage without Self = Foolishness, the inability to account for personal safety or respect for oneself.

Evil without Goodness
Doubt without Truth = Dogma, the inability to accept facts or truths.

Contempt without Love = Hatred, the inability to give hope or compassion.

Self without Courage = Ennui, a lack of drive; restlessness, boredom.

Some of this stuff, like I mentioned, is lifted whole from Ultima 7 Part 2, and the rest is extrapolated from that game's framework. What's that about there being no original ideas? I had a list of minor Forces for the game world, as well (such as Entropy) -- along with a concept that mortals could somehow "ascend" into the force and become an Immortal. Later, I found out these concepts were in OD&D, which I never read or played.

From a game standpoint, there wasn't a whole lot related to all this -- after all, there's not a lot of mechanics inherent in a philosophical system. But I did require each spellcaster to be a specialist, and had a chart listing what school/sphere associated with each force. I won't reproduce that here, because it was pretty uninspired and at times random.