Alignment & Clerics

[Tuzenbach]

I've recently been toying with the idea of creating an ultra-evil Cleric that believes himself to be good.

For inspiration it would be loosly based on the Spanish Inquisition characters within the Monty Python skit of the same name --- that's right; a comedic, evil priest.


OK. Here's where you guys come in.


I'm not sure, but wasn't The Spanish Inqusition all about brutally torturing and murdering persons who wouldn't convert to a specific religion? IIRC, it was Christianity, but don't quote me on that one.

Anyway, wasn't the justification for the butcherings primarily "We're just performing the will of God by acting righteously and punishing all non-believers" type of thing?

Again, I'm no history expert, but I would like to create a stereotypical evil Cleric who thinks he's really supremely righteous and good-souled. Like a 'Nurse Ratchet' (One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest) type of character who's always going out of his way to make persons feel bad for not doing the "Will of God".

As a matter of fact, I'm even going to use the Christian god as his diety!

I hope I've not offended anyone here.

Incidently, are all Clerics aware of thier own alignment? Is it possible that when questioned about his ethos he could confidently proclaim that he was lawful good (his own belief system) and, indeed, not indicate otherwise if a "detect lie" spell was cast, all the while having chaotic evil inscribed on his character sheet?

FWIW, I'm thinking of actually calling him "Cardinal Fang". LoL

 

[Macbeth]

How long until this gets closed? Any bets?

You may want to take out the real life religious comparisons/issues if you want this thread to stay open for long...

 

[Goblyn]

I'll try to be careful here ...

I've recently been toying with the idea of creating an ultra-evil Cleric that believes himself to be good.

For inspiration it would be loosly based on the Spanish Inquisition characters within the Monty Python skit of the same name --- that's right; a comedic, evil priest.
...
As a matter of fact, I'm even going to use the Christian god as his diety!
...
I hope I've not offended anyone here.

You probably have though.

Anyway ...

Incidently, are all Clerics aware of thier own alignment? Is it possible that when questioned about his ethos he could confidently proclaim that he was lawful good (his own belief system) and, indeed, not indicate otherwise if a "detect lie" spell was cast, all the while having chaotic evil inscribed on his character sheet?

It depends on how you look at alignment; recently there was a long thread about this(when is there not?). Is it an observation of him made by others? Something tangible? His connection with this god?

I don't see how he can have the Christian God as his deity, unless he gets his powers from somewhere else(but believing he gets them from Jehovah) because this God does not grant such powers to Its priests, and is believed(ooh ... eggshells, ... thin ice ...) to be Lawful Good; Of course, you can use that: The cleric can believe he gets his powers from God, but doesn't, which dodges a whole slew of rules-problems IMO(like what domains he can take, and things like that)

He wouldn't be lieing, but I guess he would still detect as evil, wouldn't he?

 

[Caspian Moon Prince]

While you haven't offended me, this is a gaming question after all, this is a thread I'm sure will be on thin ice as has been said.

To answer the question, the cleric would not get his powers from God. Probably from another entity, and the cleric would be mislead to believing he actually was.

As far as alignments, with a few detect spells cast by someone else a character can pretty much figure out their alignment I'm guessing. In older editions it was much more plain(heck..there was even alignment languages..so you could speak lawful good or some nonsense like that). Back to the subject. Perhaps the character couldn't figure out that they was lawful good(or lawful evil as this cleric probably would be), but they would know they had the taint of evil and was lawful from detect spells.

 

[Wombat]

I dunno. My feeling is that no one would worship an evil good believing themselves (or even the god, per se) to be truly EVIL. They might see the evil god as Strong, Practical, Clear Eyed, Realistic, or some such, but never truly Evil. I would think that is the major point of the worship.

I cannot concieve of any group of human beings going out of their way to worship something they believe in their hearts to be truly evil, but that may just reflect my hopeful veiw of humanity.

OTOH, warped individuals are always possible...

 

[Tuzenbach]

I dunno. My feeling is that no one would worship an evil good believing themselves (or even the god, per se) to be truly EVIL. They might see the evil god as Strong, Practical, Clear Eyed, Realistic, or some such, but never truly Evil. I would think that is the major point of the worship.

I cannot concieve of any group of human beings going out of their way to worship something they believe in their hearts to be truly evil, but that may just reflect my hopeful veiw of humanity.

OTOH, warped individuals are always possible...

Yeah, there actually was some philosopher (not sure which) who said "No one knowingly does evil". Based upon this, Hitler's Nazi Germany believed they were the "good guys". Richard Nixon thoroughly believed "I am NOT a crook!", while even Saddam Hussein has clearly stated (after being captured) that he did what he did for the good of his country.

There's a lot of grey area surrounding good versus evil.

 

[Umbran]

There's a lot of grey area surrounding good versus evil.

In the real world, yes. In D&D, it depends.

In the core rules, Good, Evil, law and Chaos are like Gravity. They are forces of the Universe. If you act the right way, Goodness or Chaoticness or whatever builds up on you, and the forces may act upon your person. If one cares to look, the alignment plaque is pretty obvious.

By core rules, such a priest has to be operating in a sort of willful ignorance. If he really wanted to, he could see his own alignment.

Or, change his outlook slightly. Instead of saying, "He's Evil, but he thinks he's Good," instead say, "He's evil, but he thinks he is right." The difference may be a bit subtle. Rather than say that he thinks he is acting in a Good way, he thinks he is acting in the Right way, that Good or Evil be darned, he's got the Ultimate Truth behind him.

Mind you, this comes out less comic than sinister...

 

[hong]

Mang, rangers got teh shaft.