Alignments, Cycles, and the Anger of Angels

[Tyler Do'Urden]

Recently I was reading a text about Tibetan Buddhism, in which the author (Robert Thurman) advanced a controversial theory about the conquest of Tibet- that Mao Zedong was an incarnation of Vajrapani, the Thunderbolt-Wielding Bodhisattva (think "angel of death") who tried to destroy Tibet in order to prevent another ruler from doing it first (and thereby condemning the whole world to a dark age). While, as an agnostic, I find this theory rather cranky and ridiculous, it did provoke a few thoughts regarding the use of celestials and angels in campaigns.

It is often said that we cannot understand the ways of gods or celestials, and all too often, me and others in my group are confounded as to how to use them in our campaigns. Angels seem to have little to do with human (or other mortal) existence in most campaigns. It seems the only time they ever pop up is if they are summoned by a PC, have been corrupted to the side of evil, or show up to oppose a fiend. Whereas fiends and infernal creatures seem to be quite busy in the mortal world, and take a very activist approach to things, celestials in D&D campaigns seem to be aloof- perhaps a little too aloof.

Angels in hebrew myth (as well as devas in hindu myth, and bodhisattvas in Buddhism) aren't all sweetness in life- they can often have a terrible, wrathful aspect as well, and operate at a level considerably beyond that of human concerns. But how to show this in a game? And, how does one do this without breaking the alignment system? (In a setting like Arcana Unearthed, with no alignments, such a premise would be much easier to pull off)...

 

[Planesdragon]

Spot-on.

Recently I was reading a text about Tibetan Buddhism, in which the author (Robert Thurman) advanced a controversial theory about the conquest of Tibet- that Mao Zedong was an incarnation of Vajrapani, the Thunderbolt-Wielding Bodhisattva (think "angel of death")

Do you have a title, link, ISBN number or something? Controversial religous theories are an interest of mine.

... But how to show this in a game? And, how does one do this without breaking the alignment system?

Angels, and other good-aligned celestials, shouldn't be just sitting up there doing nothing. When they do their jobs right, the mortals never realize that the angels were there--the demon never appeared, the bad king seems to have been killed by bandits or adventurers, the good-but-destined-to-doom-all prince is swiftly killed in a tragic accident...

And none of this violates alingment any more than a parent spanking their child does. The angels very literally know more and better than the mortals, and the commands of who must be killed and who must not be allowed to die are far more precise than humans could ever be--not to mention carried out by creatures that wear their corruption on their sleves, and so who don't varry from their duties very easily.


One of my off-again, on-again projects is a "proper" treatment of angels in the d20 system. I haven't really worked on them since I heard that Celestials were being re-named in 3.5 and that Malhovc was putting out an angel book, but the rules for PCs being or becoming angels are fleshed out enough for use, if you're interested.

 

[Tonguez]

Yeah like Planesdragons said most Angelic intervention is subtle and unnoticed.

Generally Angels probably have three or so roles in relation to PCs

1. To invisibly aid the PCs (was that a lucky die roll or divine grace?)
2. To secretly aid the PCs (just who is that old gnome who always keeps showing up with handy advice?)
3. To overtly aid the PCs (wow a Burning Bush what has it got to say?)

Problem with all the above is that is DM intervention, so you don't want it happening too often. Of course a Party made up of Celestial could be fun too

IC I have celestials everywhere and usually go about their preordained tasks as guardians and protectors. As such they may not directly affect the actions of mortal PCs unless the PCs ask (summon) or they do something to earn attention (like defiling the Sacred Trees). In the same campaign I'll have Feidnish creatures acting as guardians and being worshiped by 'good' folk too (eg I have a NG Fiendish Dire Eel who is the guardian of the Sacred Pool and protector of the local gnome population (who sacrifice an annual goblin to keep it happy)

As to the issue of Destroying Angels - I see no difference between a Paladin destroying the City of Evil and a pair of Angels going in and doing the same to Sodom - LG Vegeance!

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

Do you have a title, link, ISBN number or something? Controversial religous theories are an interest of mine.

Essential Tibetan Buddhism by Robert A.F. Thurman. I picked up the hardcover edition from B&N's bargain section the other day for $6. It's an interesting book, despite it's flaws. Thurman seems to eager to advance his own controversial (and somewhat absurd) theories, but those are part of the book's charm. For a more scholarly treatment of the same subject matter, take a look at Reginald Rey's textbooks (Indestructable Truth and Secret of the Vajra World)

Angels, and other good-aligned celestials, shouldn't be just sitting up there doing nothing. When they do their jobs right, the mortals never realize that the angels were there--the demon never appeared, the bad king seems to have been killed by bandits or adventurers, the good-but-destined-to-doom-all prince is swiftly killed in a tragic accident...

True, that was what I was trying to get at. I just think it would be interesting to have the PC's on the "business end" of such divine justice... and I've been trying to figure out how to do that without getting screamed at by the alignment lawyers in my groups.

One of my off-again, on-again projects is a "proper" treatment of angels in the d20 system. I haven't really worked on them since I heard that Celestials were being re-named in 3.5 and that Malhovc was putting out an angel book, but the rules for PCs being or becoming angels are fleshed out enough for use, if you're interested.

I was quite fond of the 2e book on Angels, even though it was absurdly unbalanced. ... these rules sound interesting, and I'm eagerly awaiting Malhavoc's treatment of the subject (since I'm hooked on their books)...

 

[Theron]

From "The Prophecy":

Gabriel: I'm an angel. I kill firstborns while their mamas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even, when I feel like it, rip the souls out from little girls and from now to kingdom come the only thing you can count on in your exhistence is never understanding why.

Thomas: Did you ever notice how in the Bible when God needed to punish someone .. make an example, or whenever God needed a killing .. he sent an angel. Have you ever wondered what a creature like that must be like? Your whole existence praising your God but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?

And from "The Prophecy II"

Gabriel: Let's understand each other. I sang the first hymn when the stars were born. And, long ago, I announced to a young woman, Mary, who it was she was expecting. On the other hand, I've turned rivers into blood... kings into cripples... cities into salt. So I don't think that I have to explain myself to you.

 

[Brian Chalian]

I just think it would be interesting to have the PC's on the "business end" of such divine justice... and I've been trying to figure out how to do that without getting screamed at by the alignment lawyers in my groups.

Well, an astral deva has holy word as a SLA, which means it can kill about forty neutral or evil villagers every round as a partial action with no saving throw. That spell has the Good descriptor, so according to SKR, casting it is a good act.

What if she was sent to wipe out this town of no-goodniks while your PCs are there to get information from a neutral loremaster? They'd probably try and interrupt her mission, which would almost certainly provoke her....

Theron
Those quotes are so awesome.

 

[Phaedrus]

There was a Dragon a long ways back that had an article about going up against Celestials. It had some good ideas in it.

Party recruited to help a king that a celestial has targeted for execution.

A Solar has become the leader of a demonic army, leading it against the devils, on the idea that whether he wins or loses the forces of evil are diminished.

Party seeking a relic that a celestial does NOT want found.

There were a lot more ideas than that... anyone remember what issue that was?

 

[Theron]

Theron
Those quotes are so awesome.

The films are even better. Gabriel is played by Christopher Walken. Lucifer by some guy named Viggo somethingorother...

Highly recommended.

 

[Brian Chalian]

...anyone remember what issue that was?

287.

I'll have to find those movies.

 

[Tonguez]

The films are even better. Gabriel is played by Christopher Walken. Lucifer by some guy named Viggo somethingorother...

Highly recommended.

Yeah Prophecy(s) is cool movies and amongst the best treatment of angels in film and apparently that Viggo fella went on to do another movie trilogy of movies but isn't as cool as he was as the Devil